Magnetic motor contractor with motor overload - help

To clear up a few mis-statements in this thread:

The Auxiliary Contact NO does not tell you the motor is running. I've seen this stated several times. The Auxiliary Contact simply tells you that the Contactor is energized and nothing more. The contactor could be energized, but the Supply Voltage to the motor is off either from the preceding fuse/breaker or a field disconnect after the contactor. Could be if the motor is attached to the pump, then sure the motor could be turning, but what if the coupling is broken between the motor and pump. Then the pump is not turning and the motor turning tells you nothing. It's very important to understand your process and the importance of certain things. Plan accordingly and program accordingly.

With that said, your logic for fault detection will not work either. You are missing a very basic principle of PLC's. Scan time. PLC's take time to scan through logic and they take time to update inputs and outputs. Think about this in your fault detection. The PLC writes a "1" to a memory location for an output. Then, the PLC converts that "1" in a memory location to an output module in a PLC rack. If that output is in a local rack, it happens through the backplane. If it is in a remote rack, it happens across the communication link. Once the Output module gets the signal to energize its output, electricity travels to the device (contactor in this case). The Contactor is a magnetic device and takes time to build a magnetic field and close the contactor. At this point, the NO contacts close and a signal travels back to an Input Module. The Input module sees power on an input and sends a signal to the PLC that a particular input is on. The PLC then writes a "1" into a memory location associated with that input address. The PLC then has to scan this memory address and scan the logic and act upon the Input.

All of the above takes time. So, when you turn on an output in your program, the Auxiliary Input isn't going to turn on immediately, and quite possibly not within the single scan of your PLC logic. So if your logic is My output Is On, but my Input isn't, then fault, you are going to generate a fault every time you turn the output on. You need a delay timer to give time for the Input to come on. Usually a second or two is sufficient. But again, that goes back to your process...is that acceptable?

As for the OL, that input needs no other condition to fault. If the OL is tripped, it's faulted. You don't care whether the output was on or not. Most times if there is an OL input, I would prefer it be NC, not NO. It detects failsafe condition. Again think about the criticalness of your process. What if the signal wire from your NO Overload contact breaks or loses power? You will never know, because you are needing a "1" to indicate an OL. But if there is no wire or power, you will never get a "1" and never detect an OL. If the contact is wired NC, then you will always have a "1" in a safe state. If the OL trips, or the wire breaks, or you lose power, you lose the "1" and you know something is wrong.

A good PLC/Controls Engineer knows all of these nuances, and we could write volumes on just this simple problem. But what you need to take away from this exercise is how to evaluate "What If" and to know the consequences of when things fail.
 
On the motor starter the NC contact on the Overload section is to make sure your motor is running within its rated current. Overloads are sized based on the load the motor will draw.

The NO contact on the Contactor just provides feedback to let you know its pulled in, when it should be.

Its important to correlate what all these inputs mean in the real world when programming.

If this fails -> this is the result

It's critical to understand the possible failure modes relative to each device.

Ok I am coming close now lol

Thanks for the help!
 
To clear up a few mis-statements in this thread:

The Auxiliary Contact NO does not tell you the motor is running. I've seen this stated several times. The Auxiliary Contact simply tells you that the Contactor is energized and nothing more. The contactor could be energized, but the Supply Voltage to the motor is off either from the preceding fuse/breaker or a field disconnect after the contactor. Could be if the motor is attached to the pump, then sure the motor could be turning, but what if the coupling is broken between the motor and pump. Then the pump is not turning and the motor turning tells you nothing. It's very important to understand your process and the importance of certain things. Plan accordingly and program accordingly.

So NO aux contact can be used in programming to find if there is fault in my contactor or NO.

Let's say Motor overload is not tripped, I got power to my motor but the motor is still not running then I could have a problem with my contactor and by looking into my PLC code, and without opening my control panel, I can check if each contactor is getting energized or No.

I think NO aux contact feedback signal to my PLC input card can help me to see if there is no problem with contactor and if there will problem of course my cotactor coil will not pulled in or energized.

Correct me if I am wrong!


With that said, your logic for fault detection will not work either. You are missing a very basic principle of PLC's. Scan time. PLC's take time to scan through logic and they take time to update inputs and outputs. Think about this in your fault detection. The PLC writes a "1" to a memory location for an output. Then, the PLC converts that "1" in a memory location to an output module in a PLC rack. If that output is in a local rack, it happens through the backplane. If it is in a remote rack, it happens across the communication link. Once the Output module gets the signal to energize its output, electricity travels to the device (contactor in this case). The Contactor is a magnetic device and takes time to build a magnetic field and close the contactor. At this point, the NO contacts close and a signal travels back to an Input Module. The Input module sees power on an input and sends a signal to the PLC that a particular input is on. The PLC then writes a "1" into a memory location associated with that input address. The PLC then has to scan this memory address and scan the logic and act upon the Input.

All of the above takes time. So, when you turn on an output in your program, the Auxiliary Input isn't going to turn on immediately, and quite possibly not within the single scan of your PLC logic. So if your logic is My output Is On, but my Input isn't, then fault, you are going to generate a fault every time you turn the output on. You need a delay timer to give time for the Input to come on. Usually a second or two is sufficient. But again, that goes back to your process...is that acceptable?

I think i get your point what you mentioned above and I am controlling the conveyor system which consist of proximity sensor and motor and I think little delay will be acceptable! but I will try to think twice and overcome this problem as well

As for the OL, that input needs no other condition to fault. If the OL is tripped, it's faulted. You don't care whether the output was on or not. Most times if there is an OL input, I would prefer it be NC, not NO. It detects failsafe condition. Again think about the criticalness of your process. What if the signal wire from your NO Overload contact breaks or loses power? You will never know, because you are needing a "1" to indicate an OL. But if there is no wire or power, you will never get a "1" and never detect an OL. If the contact is wired NC, then you will always have a "1" in a safe state. If the OL trips, or the wire breaks, or you lose power, you lose the "1" and you know something is wrong.

what you said make total sense to me,

In my case, I have two aux contact 1NO AND 1NC, One NO contact is going to my PLC input and I think I will use this to detect fault in my OL but as you said, It would be great if it was NC. but i have to deal what I got here.

I have another NC contact of OL which is going to PLC output card and the motor starter has same address of my NC contact of OL, I don't understand the purpose of this?


A good PLC/Controls Engineer knows all of these nuances, and we could write volumes on just this simple problem. But what you need to take away from this exercise is how to evaluate "What If" and to know the consequences of when things fail.

I am trying to get here!!

Thank you for the wonderfull explaination and your help!
 
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Yes, you're understanding. The NO Contact on the Contactor will only tell you that the Contactor energized when you commanded it to. Nothing more. You can infer that if the contactor is energized then your motor is running, but depending on your process that can be dangerous and unacceptable. There are many reasons why the contactor could be energized but the motor and or device is not running. In the case of conveyors, it's why most control systems have zero speed switches to know the conveyor is actually running.

Yes also on the NO/NC on the OL. You understand. The reason the NC of the OL is wired in series of the PLC output (or on the neutral side of the contactor) is for failsafe. Supposed you have a program error and the output stays on...or the output gets shorted on. You want an independent device (the OL) to shut off power to the contactor if there is an overload.
 
Yes, you're understanding. The NO Contact on the Contactor will only tell you that the Contactor energized when you commanded it to. Nothing more. You can infer that if the contactor is energized then your motor is running, but depending on your process that can be dangerous and unacceptable. There are many reasons why the contactor could be energized but the motor and or device is not running. In the case of conveyors, it's why most control systems have zero speed switches to know the conveyor is actually running.

Yes also on the NO/NC on the OL. You understand. The reason the NC of the OL is wired in series of the PLC output (or on the neutral side of the contactor) is for failsafe. Supposed you have a program error and the output stays on...or the output gets shorted on. You want an independent device (the OL) to shut off power to the contactor if there is an overload.

Awesome! Last question please!

I attached the picture of my 3-phase motor with feedback signal

Here is the link

https://ibb.co/gUEoDk


My actual contactor with overload in control panel

https://ibb.co/jao6Yk

1. NO aux contact of contactor is connected to input card of PLC and address is R1S3DI00

In plc, i can check whenever It close or write 1, my contactor energize and if it doesn't become 1 when it suppose to something wrong!

2. NO aux of OL is connected to input card of PLC and address is R1S3DI01

In PLC, I can check the state of this input and turn on the fault indicator light to indicate if my motor is tripped

3. NC aux of OL is connected to output card of PLC and address is R1S5DO00 AND my electrician guy use the same address to connect my motor and whenever my prox sensor turns ON, anything connected to this address R1S5DO00 (motor in my case) should be turned on.

Can you please clarify more about it?


Thank you so much again for wonderful explanation
 
Awesome! Last question please!

I attached the picture of my 3-phase motor with feedback signal

Here is the link

https://ibb.co/gUEoDk


My actual contactor with overload in control panel

https://ibb.co/jao6Yk

1. NO aux contact of contactor is connected to input card of PLC and address is R1S3DI00

In plc, i can check whenever It close or write 1, my contactor energize and if it doesn't become 1 when it suppose to something wrong!

2. NO aux of OL is connected to input card of PLC and address is R1S3DI01

In PLC, I can check the state of this input and turn on the fault indicator light to indicate if my motor is tripped

3. NC aux of OL is connected to output card of PLC and address is R1S5DO00 AND my electrician guy use the same address to connect my motor and whenever my prox sensor turns ON, anything connected to this address R1S5DO00 (motor in my case) should be turned on.

Can you please clarify more about it?


Thank you so much again for wonderful explanation

As mentioned earlier, on #1, you need to use a timer. In other words, if Output is ON and Input is OFF, TMR 1 sec. If TMR times out, THEN indicate contactor fault.
 
robertmee,

I got you! Thank you!

You are the best! Much appreciated :)

And thank you everyone in this thread who helped me with their knowledge.

Best,
 
As mentioned earlier, on #1, you need to use a timer. In other words, if Output is ON and Input is OFF, TMR 1 sec. If TMR times out, THEN indicate contactor fault.

I understand the timer concept but don't you think it can be achieved without timer too and I tried to write the below code!

Link is here
https://ibb.co/fLvjm5

If there will be part on conveyor 1, it will turn on the motor 1 (Conveyor1.motor_control) which means when a part is on conveyor, code should write 1 to conveyor1.motor_control to turn on the motor but the motor is not ON and now I check if contactor is energized or not to turn on the motor. so I used NC motor run (Status of my NO aux contact) and It should be 1 when conveyor1.motor_control is 1 and there will be no fault but if conveyor1.motor_control is 1 and motor_run (aux contact) stay 0 or not energized, I will get my contactor fault.

And I put my NO motor overload in parallel, if it become 1 means motor tripped and its again motor fault.

note: I am using same bit for motor overload trippered and cotactor fault because we only have one indicator light on control panel.

What do you think about my assumption!

Thanks
 
You are incorrect. You didn't understand the explanation of PLC Scan and the time it takes to update inputs and outputs. There will be a delay between turning Conveyor1.motor_Control on and actually seeing motor_run turn on. During that physical delay, the PLC is still scanning so it will see .motor_Control on and motor_run off and your fault will turn on every time. What you also don't realize is that most PLC's follow a scan sequence of

Update Inputs
Evaluate Logic
Update Outputs

So, your logic will turn on Conveyor1.motor, but your physical output will not even be on (not to be confused by the memory output). So, your contactor will not be on until the PLC completes its scan and gets to the update Outputs. Then and only then will your contactor turn on. Then the PLC will update inputs immediately. Your contactor takes time to magnetize and pull in, so it's very conceivable that the next scan of inputs will miss your auxiliary. So again your logic will be evaluated and motor_on is still off. Again, your logic would turn on Fault.

And Here's the sequence of the physical event's that happen:

Logic turns on Conveyor1.motor
PLC updates output module

Contactor Pulls in
Contactor NO Aux is closed
Input module detects voltage
PLC reads Inputs and updates motor_run to a 1

What you aren't realizing is that during all the steps which takes time, the PLC is again scanning your logic. So the time it takes motor_run to become a 1, the PLC will have already scanned your fault rung one or more times. The PLC doesn't pause and wait for your contactor to pull in.
 
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You are incorrect. You didn't understand the explanation of PLC Scan and the time it takes to update inputs and outputs. There will be a delay between turning Conveyor1.motor_Control and actually seeing motor_run turn on. During that physical delay, the PLC is still scanning so it will see .motor_Control on and motor_run off and your fault will turn on every time.

I got you point now!!! So according to my current code, My fault indicator light will be kind of blink because it will turn ON during the delay between conveyor1.motor_control On to actual motor ON and when both will be ON, it will turn off my fault and it will make my fault light blink right?

How about this link!

https://ibb.co/dBwPm5

So when my output is 1 and as you saying it may take time to send signal to physical address of my PLC output card where my motor is connected. So I put delay when output is ON take 2 second to match the condition of output to my aux contact and if doesnt match then show fault.

Please check the link above.

Thanks again
 
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I got you point now!!! So according to my current code, My fault indicator light will be kind of blink because it will turn ON during the delay between conveyor1.motor_control On to actual motor ON and when both will be ON, it will turn off my fault and it will make my fault light blink right?

How about this link!

https://ibb.co/dBwPm5

So when my output is 1 and as you saying it may take time to send signal to physical address of my PLC output card where my motor is connected. So I put delay when output is ON take 2 second to match the condition of output to my aux contact and if doesnt match then show fault.

Please check the link above.

Thanks again

Yes, you got it.

One other note, to carry this forward. Think about how you are going to use that Fault bit in your code. If that fault bit is going to turn off your contactor in logic, then you would immediately lose your fault bit, because you are no longer commanding the motor to turn on. So the fault bit would only be true for one scan, and you probably wouldn't see the fault light.

If you do that, you would need to latch in the fault light and have the operator reset it from a push button or maybe it self resets when the start command is reissued. Just depends on what you plan to do with the fault bit.
 
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Yes, you got it.

One other note, to carry this forward. Think about how you are going to use that Fault bit in your code. If that fault bit is going to turn off your contactor in logic, then you would immediately lose your fault bit, because you are no longer commanding the motor to turn on. So the fault bit would only be true for one scan, and you probably wouldn't see the fault light.

If you do that, you would need to latch in the fault light and have the operator reset it from a push button or maybe it self resets when the start command is reissued. Just depends on what you plan to do with the fault bit.

Yes, I understand your point, So I am using 6 fault bit (internal memory bit) for each motor (6 motor total in this project) and putting them in parallel and if anyone goes 1, it will turn on the indicator light and I am latching that light after that to see the fault light and here is the code below for that.

https://ibb.co/kpJn65

and yes we were writing at the same time haha

Thanks!
 

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