Micrologix Memory wipe

[OZEE]

I guess Tackdriver has the right to protect "his" code if he so desires. If I were one of his potential customers, I would exercise my right to not do business with him.

Whenever we farm out a programming job, we specify that we own the code, and require full access. If the person doing the programming doesn't want to do this, we look elsewhere.

So in the end, the market will determine who wins.

Ditto -- And I've worked both sides of this fence (OEM/SI and Customer)

Tackdriver won't be doing any business for me.

If I have a system in one of my plants, I must be able to work on it. If I've paid you to do a job for me, it's my system. If the system needs adjusted as the process evolves/changes, then I may or may not go back to you for the work. Most likely, I'll do it myself. If you've blocked me out of it......

Tackdriver, you said:

Its like these yahoos that try to hack Windows.
Did Gates take that lying down? No. Just because you buy a machine does not give you unlimited rights to the software that makes it run. You cannot duplicate Windows, for example.

Gates doesn't take it lying down when someone tries to hack Windoze or Excel or Word. You're right. BUT he has absolutely no voice in protecting my spreadsheets or documents.

We would never dream of trying to hack a PLC -- but the analogy falls apart right there. The "Windows" or "Excel" part of a PLC system is the ladder logic firmware. The Ladder Logic running the application is like the .xls or .doc file -- it's not protected.

The market will dictate the prices customers will pay -- if you want to charge for a cadillac in a chevy market, you're going to get real hungry... If you upset your customers with timebombs in the program they won't be back.

These programs are NOT demos -- once they're installed in the plant, they're "operation". How would you like it if the computer in your car lapsed out of demo mode when you were going down the interstate in heavy traffic? Oops -- you were only trying it out... you only got the demo. Toooooo bad you're dead....

And with your attitude about your customers ("Yahoos") you're not going to be in business long.

 

[monkeyhead]

I don't have any problem with a programmer trying to protect his code, but like Ken, I wouldn't do business with such a person. It isn't official company policy, but it is definately an understood rule among all the Maintenance and Engineering groups that if a vendor won't provide the code, then we do everything we can to make sure that their bid ends up on the bottom of the pile.

Having full access to PLC code is too vital for troubleshooting and support. We just don't have the time to wait for a vendor to throw a tech on a plane (nor do we feel like paying for it), and our corporate buracracy would never give VPN access to an outside company. Not to mention that even the best documentation doesn't cover a machine's behavior in such a comprehensive manner.

And for as big of a head as most programmers have, there is often room for improvement on 'stock' code. This is especially true when the machines are custom one-offs that have been specificed to play nice with our existing software base. But I have found room for improvement even in largely produced 'serialized' machinery.

I often wonder if this is because of the market segment I work in. If the same guys writing code for packing and distribution equipment are writing the code for 'heavy' industry like mines and such, I'd be terrified to work near them.

 

[leitmotif]

You see it is attitudes like the two above that make this career sucky at times. Read some court rulings. Modernize your thinking.

YOU WILL MAKE MORE MONEY

A long time ago I learned that the only reason PCs exist is as a distribution medium for software. Software is where the money is.

The only reason you should care about selling some customer a drive or PLC is so you can bundle with it the high priced software.

Its like these yahoos that try to hack Windows.
Did Gates take that lying down? No. Just because you buy a machine does not give you unlimited rights to the software that makes it run. You cannot duplicate Windows, for example.

Integrators are not at the top of the programming food chain.
The reason is because we are percieved (and we market ourselves) as some sort of fancy electrician or mechanic.
We need to reinvent ourselves to reflect the fact that we are skilled professionals capable of generating intellectual property, and we should defend those intellectual property rights to the fullest.

To summarize, this means:
1) VALUEING OUR CODE
Without the code to make the machine work, the machine is worth far less. We need to fully realize this.

2) PROTECTING OUR CODE
Third party manipulation of LL or ST that you wrote is NOT customer serivce. IT IS THEFT. You will not generate a new commission based upon some yahoo making a mod to your programs.

3) CHARGING ACCORDING REAL WORTH. Some yahoo is building a machine that will generate 6,7,8 figures of revenue a year.
Your code will enable this. Dont be afraid to quote accordingly. Dont be afraid to walk away when the lowball you.

4) YOU ARE A PROGRAMMER. You are not an electrician, mechanic, carpenter, pipefitter or a whole host of other "one-offs". For example, Gates can program computers. But you dont see him running the 120 V outlet through the walls of his house. On PLCs, land and check IO if you must, but let all the other trades be the function of customer/your employee/your subs.

This may sound harsh, and maybe in some ways it is. But I also think its high time we quit subsizding others and started watching out for ourselves.

1. Please report your success with this approach.
2. IF you think you have dreamed something new guess again. Elevator companies have been doing this for years. Sell the elevator sell the service. All kinds of companies do this ie the warranty is void if you ,,,,,,
3. IF you tried to do this to me forget it. I the buyer own the PLC and I own the program you wrote for me. This is nothing new either: your medical records are NOT the property of the doctor. Consltant reports are the property of the person who contracted them.

Dan Bentler

 

[CroCop]

You see it is attitudes like the two above that make this career sucky at times. Read some court rulings. Modernize your thinking.

YOU WILL MAKE MORE MONEY

A long time ago I learned that the only reason PCs exist is as a distribution medium for software. Software is where the money is.

The only reason you should care about selling some customer a drive or PLC is so you can bundle with it the high priced software.

Its like these yahoos that try to hack Windows.
Did Gates take that lying down? No. Just because you buy a machine does not give you unlimited rights to the software that makes it run. You cannot duplicate Windows, for example.

Integrators are not at the top of the programming food chain.
The reason is because we are percieved (and we market ourselves) as some sort of fancy electrician or mechanic.
We need to reinvent ourselves to reflect the fact that we are skilled professionals capable of generating intellectual property, and we should defend those intellectual property rights to the fullest.

To summarize, this means:
1) VALUEING OUR CODE
Without the code to make the machine work, the machine is worth far less. We need to fully realize this.

2) PROTECTING OUR CODE
Third party manipulation of LL or ST that you wrote is NOT customer serivce. IT IS THEFT. You will not generate a new commission based upon some yahoo making a mod to your programs.

3) CHARGING ACCORDING REAL WORTH. Some yahoo is building a machine that will generate 6,7,8 figures of revenue a year.
Your code will enable this. Dont be afraid to quote accordingly. Dont be afraid to walk away when the lowball you.

4) YOU ARE A PROGRAMMER. You are not an electrician, mechanic, carpenter, pipefitter or a whole host of other "one-offs". For example, Gates can program computers. But you dont see him running the 120 V outlet through the walls of his house. On PLCs, land and check IO if you must, but let all the other trades be the function of customer/your employee/your subs.

This may sound harsh, and maybe in some ways it is. But I also think its high time we quit subsizding others and started watching out for ourselves.

Well, good luck.
If you really understood the hows & whys of a PLC's operation, you'd realize that LL or ST or FB or WTFever is not art. It is a method of controlling a process. As beautiful as it may be, there is no comparison to art, LOL.