PID Equation Deriavation (Automation)

macs_plc

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Can any body derive me the PID equation mathematically with Explanation???
For interview Reasons....
normally nobody is ready derive this equation y?

somebody teach me the concept behind this equation seperately
for smoothing, stability, time resposne PID.......
 
So, just how much searching did you do before posting this thread?

There is almost no such thing as a new problem. Just people who will not look for the existing answers. PID is a topic that has been covered in enormous detail in this forum over the years. Have a look at some of Ron Beaufort's excellent articles on the topic.
 
I agree. Check Ron Beaufort's site for his articles on PID. I didn't get how they worked at all until I read his aticles on it and set the equations up in a spreadsheet.
 
macs_plc said:
normally nobody is ready derive this equation y?

Nobody derives the equation, and no one really ever did in the sense of deriving it from first principals or laws of physics. PID is an empirical equation, based on the "three mode controllers" developed decades ago as pneumatic controllers with orifices, needle valves, and mechanical linkage. The PID equation essentially models the proportional, reset, and rate adjustments of these controllers.
 
You are looking at the problem all wrong.

Tom Jenkins said:
Nobody derives the equation, and no one really ever did in the sense of deriving it from first principals or laws of physics.
Are you sure? I am not. In fact I doubt it. There have been some pretty smart math geniuses in the past centuries. These differential equations we often of interest because they closely modeled the way things worked in nature. Today, control guys think in terms of poles and zeros and how to place them. This is all derived from the concept of eigen values or roots.

PID is an empirical equation, based on the "three mode controllers"
I think this is due mostly due to a lot of practical limitations because it wasn't really a mathematical limitation.

developed decades ago as pneumatic controllers with orifices, needle valves, and mechanical linkage. The PID equation essentially models the proportional, reset, and rate adjustments of these controllers.
Reset, WTF gets reset? The integrator time constant is just on of the terms that can be use to move a pole in the desired direction.

Controllers were built with vacuum tubes. I bet I can find some very old examples if I look.

The problem is that most of you look at three separate gains and tweak them with understand what it is doing mathematically to the poles ( response ) of the system. As you move the poles closer the the negative real axis the response becomes closer to critically damped. I am sure this knowledge was available long before pneumatic controllers.

I bet Cauchy or Laplace could have derived the formulas for a PID without problem. I can, with a little work, but I stand on their shoulders and have Mathcad. Also, note. The result isn't always going to be a PID. Sometime it will be a PI or a PID with a second derivative. It depends on the system you start with.

It all makes sense when you stop looking at a PID as three gains to tweak and see the gains as coefficients that can be added to a differential equation and used to place the eigen values.
 
Oh
Dont worry they wont ask you to derive the equation for PID unless this interview is for the post of Professor in IIT.
Relax......
 
Ok thank u all, i will go through Ron Beaufort's Article ....
but PID Block is not same for all types of PLC...it is having a very vast programming and configuration difference between each types of PLC....
It was my interview question to derive PID equation, i just gave them some explantaion and equation, but i got the offer, then after joining i asked the interviewer to teach me the derivation which i missed at the time of interview, but he also not ready to explain, iam sure he doesn't know how to derive....
so i am very much interested to go through that topic....


Can any of you post me good example with working PID blocks in any of this PLC types - Triconex, siemens S7 300, AB or any
or in I/A Series FoxBoro DCS ?


Thanks for all of ur support
 
Last edited:
Yeah, Peter, I'm pretty sure.

The original PID controllers developed by Zigler and Nichols at Fisher Porter in Philadelphia were pneumatic. Maybe they derived the equations first and then developed the mechnaical widgets to emulate it, but that scenario seems unlikely.

Reset was developed to mechanically eliminate proportional droop. It essentially "restet" the setpoint, and the terminology carried over for years. Only after the mathematical modelling got sophisticated did the term integral become common.
 
I would suspect that the engineers of the first pneumatic controllers analysed that design to the nth degree. Keep in mind that a theory mistake back then didn't result in a simple change to couple of constants in a CPU executable. Back then you took your prototype, threw it in the garbage and started over. That class of cost of failure tends to reward correct analysis.

The big kicker for me tends to be that the controllers use decidedly linear elements to control what are inherently non-linear systems. If I were designing a controller to control any of the processes I deal with without any specific system analysis capability I would end up with a very non-linear controller; it would morte closely match the systyem it is controlling. The reason they use linear ewlements is because they had the tools to easily analyse the response of a linear system.

Keith
 
Tom

Did Ziegler & Nichols actually invent/design/develop the controllers? I'd always thought that their contribution had been the method for tuning the controllers? I don't much about (hey, there's a first for Ken M :)) the history of this so I'd be interested to find out some more. Prior to Z&N I thought most people knew you needed a lump of P, a bit of I and a sprinking of D, but were never quite sure how much of these to use. Z&N put it on some formalised basis.

Ken
 
Something has been lost any the road to where we are now.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=r...yI_Httow42-zRHuGQ&sig2=WS2IG18xS1oOR77bz-bx4Q

Maxwell of Maxwell's equations wrote this back in 1868
I did a search for On Governors Maxwell.

Hey guys Maxwell did this 150 years ago. Maxwell didn't see the problem as a PID problem. It was a math and physic problem. He didn't call his controller a PID but you can see the math is there to do the calculations to make the governors operate in a smooth a predictable way. This predate Blacks PID ( 1927 ) and the Foxboro pneumatic controllers ( 1929 ). Some where a long the way the underlying math that is used to do the calculations was ignored and people just started to think of P, I and D gains and tweaking them separatly rather than trying to get the roots or eigen valves at a desired location.

My hat is off to Maxwell. Another person to put on my hero list along with Newton, Pascal, Gauss etc. I knew about the Maxwell equations but I didn't know he was involved in control theory too.
 
I think the problem is that responsibility for the underlying math has moved from the controller designer to the controller user. On the old pneumatic controllers and many older electronic controllers the settings were made with a screwdriver and a valve/pot. There was no numerical entry involved at all. In addition Prop Band was used rather than gain and although the relationship is simple the "visualisation" of this tended to be more intuition than calculation. The need for the user to understand the theory never really materialised until digital controllers, DCS's and finally PLC's became the norm.
Andybr
 
OK, Peter, I stand corected. I confess some of the Maxwell math was over my head and I didn't do a thorough study, but it appears that Maxwell did derive the equations based on the physics of the flyball governor. I frankly hadn't ever thought of them as PID, but on reflection I agree with you.
 

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