PID - Generator / Engine Control

DBLD99

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Join Date
Oct 2003
Location
USA
Posts
230
Hello, I have been working on a project that uses linear actuators to control a diesel engine generator. I have all the control part done with multiple PID's and such to load the generator. The last thing on the list is Im having trouble getting the engine to "Line itself" with the grid in under a minute. I currently have a PID on it with really no luck. Sometimes it takes 3 min sometimes it takes 30 seconds.
My question is should I go away from the PID control and try some other sampling type logic, or is there on instruction currently in 5000 that might help me out.

I have RSTune but it does not like the PV. The generator starts out at 0 RPM and it usally is close to sync around 327.7 RPM. It goes from 0 to 330 RPM in 30 Seconds.
 
Not sure I could help but there are a few here very experienced with gensets.

What I am trying to understand is exactly what are you controlling? Controlling a genset engine gets tricky to say the least, their are numerous control systems that are designed for that specific purpose that may work better.
http://www.woodward.com/engine/diesel/diesel.cfm

For me, 330 RPM does not makes sense, so maybe you could offer more on this.

It is usually called synchonizing when paralleling gensets to each other or a grid.
 
I would not advise using a PID for the generator sync. I would use a device such as Basler autosync, or a sync check relay and use discrete logic to monitor the state for when it does sync.
 
Using a PLC for Generator fuel control is generally not too difficult, especially if the generator is connected to the grid so very tight speed control is not required. Synchronising is another matter entirely and I do not think you will be able to do this using a PLC alone. Are you actually measuring the phase relationship between the generator output and the grid or are you simply waiting for the generator to just "drift" into synch. I would second the suggestion to use a seperate auto synchroniser from someone like Basler or Woodward. The consequences of getting this wrong could be very expensive. Even with the auto synchroniser I would still use a check synch relay for added protection.

Andybr.
 
Stop trying to reinvent the wheel and go out and buy a Woodward GCP30 series generator controller or something similar. The GCP30 is really quite cheap for what it does - tell it what to do and it does it when properly tuned.

Do not use prox switches or mag pick ups into the PLC to control speed either. PLC controlled overspeed has been a disaster wherever I have seen it used. I use the generator controller for overspeed and a separate overspeed relay as well. Nothing like seeing bits bust out of the side of the engine if you stuff up I can assure you. Damnned expensive too.

These companies invest millions of dollars developing their products and everyone wants to reinvent the wheel to save a bit. No way Jose.

I also get the manufacturer to site to tune the controller. They can normally do in a day what takes me 2-3 days as they are doing it all the time. Get the job commissioned and get on to the next job and make some money. Time is your most expensive item usually at commissioning as there is a cast of thousands hanging around waiting for practical completion so they can all get paid. Not only time wasted on this job but putting you behind on the next job.

We have all tried full PLC control for speed control, Var contol, no export control and those that make good money have given that nonsense away years ago.

The best generator controller I have seen is an Ozzie product but it is expensive (ouch). They tune these things really aggressively though - I have seen a diesel up to speed and synchronised in way under 10 seconds regularly from cold start. Have also seen a set synchronised with other sets or the mains for sometimes up to minutes at a time without going out of synch. Very good tuning - I cannot do that and have been doing generator systems for over 15 years including base load power stations running at 11kV.

PID is normally used for all the tuning functions. Diesel sets are normally set up without any "D" at all. Gas sets use heaps of "D" as they are as sluggish as get out.

The Ozz controller uses multiple PIDs - one for starting and acceleration, on for idle speed, one for running, one for synchronised with other sets and another for synchronised with the council - really optimum control. I have seen on a job I put together 3 sets synched together on a common bus with no load sharing 5-10 kW and 5-10 kVar. The sets varied from an old 1.1 mW heap of garbage to a 4.1 mW Ruston and the 3rd set was a 2 mW high performance Wartzilla. They all responded differently, were of different capacity, different metal mass, different AVR response and all worked extremely well together, despite the differences, after a 13 hour commissioning period by the manufacturers representantive. I would have been there for a month and I am very experienced with these things. Just going through my bragging sheet the other day and I have done over 350 generator jobs now including several very complex base load power stations and some of them included using and having to control the treatment of crude oil as fuel - couple of drops on the pavement go hard in minutes - really nasty stuff.

I repeat stop trying to reinvent the wheel and go out and by a good generator controller (digital) that will do the job and get the manufacturer in to tune the darn thing!
 
Well were way past buying any woodward device. The city powerplant went this route, Im controlling the "governor" with a linear actuator. We do have a sync check relay along with the 1407-CGCM module so I use both to determine if I am able to close the breaker.

Like I said I am very pleased with the whole speed control and loading the generator with a PLC the city is very happy with the whole project in fact we got hired to do the other 7 engines over the next 8 years.

I do have the PID in a periodic task. But like someone said if I put the governor at 25% open and leave it there the engine will "drift up" so I know the problem just looking for some other input on how to possibly control such a thing without a PID.

Thanks for your help -- I understand the whole - went the wrong route thing, but Im the engineer that comes in after everything is bought and is supposed to make it work.

I'll think of something, But mabey since I got all this GREAT feedback I could talk to city about doing something different on the next ones. Thanks again
 
Last edited:
Diesel engine control-PID

hi ,
i am new to this diesel engine control..can any one provide me information/resource about the basic control system behind the diesel engine using PID control..
 
I agree. Always use a proper syncronizer such as Basler etc. Depending on your PLC, the scan time may be longer then the breaker close time that you are allowed. I had a customer request that I do the synconizing with an overloaded micrologix PLC. It was impossible to do.

Giz.

Giz.
 

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