Replacement for an old, old, old 2711-TC1... PanelView 1200

[AutomationTechBrian]

I tried turning this project down, but the panicked look in my customer's face caused me to tell him I will try to come up with a solution... with no promises. But as I get into it, it does seem more possible than my initial impression. Ideally, I would convert the old screen to ether a new, or "newer" HMI (panelview or otherwise). But I don't do this often enough to know from experience which path to take. I have some attachments to share. It's a SLC 5/03, and the PanelView is connected to an RIO Scanner... and they took advantage of the distance capabilities of RIO. The machine and HMI are a couple hundred feet away from the panel with the PLC (see pic of PLC in the panel). The great news is that the original machine builder gave me the original PLC and HMI files. I did some digging on the Rockwell site and found a copy of PanelBuilder 1200 that I downloaded and installed on an Windows XP, SP2 VM. So, I have a printout of all the original screens, and after reading Ken Roach's experience with the conversions, I'm expecting to re-create all the screens from scratch in the new HMI software, without trying to convert this file. It really doesn't seem that complicated of an application.

So... any advice how I could, or should, accomplish a retrofit? Obviously the RIO is a snag. I first thought about a bridge to Ethernet, but the one recommended is long obsolete. I thought about replacing the 5/03 with a 5/05 with Ethernet.... until I Googled it and saw the prices upwards of $9k. It still might be a possibility, but I don't know what I don't know about converting the program from a 5/03 to a 5/05. The screen only needs to be about 10" or so, and it doesn't really have to be a PanelView if something else would work well (and is readily available).

I'll post some pics, and the PLC program. I could also post a PDF of the HMI if it is helpful, but I'd want to edit it first to remove details about the customer. I noticed that pics will often show up without having to open a file if there is only one pic per post, so that's what I'll try doing.

I'm hoping this will work out. My world is full of legacy equipment, and I'd like to better learn how to help some of these folks.

What are your thoughts?

 

[AutomationTechBrian]

Here is the PanelView 1200.

 

[AutomationTechBrian]

Here is the SLC 5/03

 

[AutomationTechBrian]

And here is the zipped PLC file. Hopefully I did it correctly.

 

[Ken Moore]

It's been a looooong time since I did a RIO HMI. The PLC should have block transfer logic that reads and writes to the HMI. Have you considered using the serial port on the 5/03, with a serial to ethernet adapter. Can the application tolerate the serial speed limits?

 

[Ken Roach]

The good news is that there aren't any Block Transfers so the logic is very straightforward for all the addressing to I:12 and O:12.

Are there any other devices physically connected to the RIO network ? The 1747-SN is configured to scan four "logical racks", but PanelViews can emulate multiple "racks", so it's possible the PanelView 1200 occupies the full I:12.0-31 and O:12.0-31.

There don't appear to be any Block Transfer features in the program, so you just need to focus on those I:12 an O:12 bits and words.

The hardest part of this is figuring out how you want to use the RIO twisted-pair wiring to conduct Ethernet or RS-232.

I've used Moxa Ethernet switches (the IEX-402/408) that can be linked together with twisted pair using the same DSL technology that older generation broadband Internet service providers used over copper wire.

If you wanted to get the benefit of being able to access your PanelView Plus or Red Lion Crimson or PC over that IP link, you could either upgrade to an SLC-5/05 or get an EtherNet/IP to DF1 converter. Real Time Automation's Net-ENI replacement is probably the most set-it-and-forget-it unit on the market.

Or you could keep it even simpler and use RS-232 on the HMI side, and a modem to make use of the twisted pair. Perle sells a decent little DIN rail mounted SHDSL modem.

If your customer is comfortable with hardware HMI's, I would reach for a Red Lion Graphite 10" unit.

 

[GaryS]

The SLC's have been phased out
the 5/03 weas a bad choice to start with
I think an option you may consider is upgrade to Logix processor
use the SLC chassie and connect as a remote chassie using ethernet
You are gong to have to replace the processor sooner or later anyway replacement now would be cheeper in the long run then you can use whatever HMI you want.
You should be able to hand copy the code across to a new processor
what is change over worth to you / your customer
As said befor you can use the serial port on the 5/03 I have seen that done meny times

 

[AutomationTechBrian]

Ok, let me talk through some of the details...

First, there are no other RIO devices on the scanner. That was the first thing I checked. However, looking at the PLC rack picture, there's something hooked up to the serial port on the 5/03. I'm surprised I didn't think about following the cable to see what it is. The data highway (cough, cough) connection, however, is open.

But before I look at converters, I had a thought about trying a proof of concept test. I have a 5/05 in my shop that I could "borrow" for this. (If it worked, they'd need to get a different CPU, though) In doing a test, I'm thinking about the details... Would you keep the I:12 and O:12 addresses, and address to them in the HMI, or would you change the addresses in the ladders to B's and N's? (not much for N's, though. It's mostly bits.) The machine operator station is a couple hundred feet away from the PLC, but probably less than 300ft, so a straight run from PLC to HMI should be OK. They run the cables in the rafters, then drop down, so it would not be that hard to have them run fresh Cat 5 (we would leave the RIO alone, but maybe unhook it). Then, before buying the HMI, would it make sense to use the runtime file in the HMI software file on my laptop to prove it all works? This *sounds* like it would work, but I don't know what I don't know.

So in other words, I'd temporarily switch out the CPU, hook up a HMI runtime running on my laptop, and test some functions to see if it worked. If it did, then we'd find the components to make it permanent. Am I being naïve?

Speaking of components, I've heard horror stories about availability of HMIs. Not sure about a 10" Panelview or Red Lion. That may be a factor in which one I'd go with. The screens have very basic designs.

If it matters, the test CPU is a 1747-L552 Ser B, Rev 4. Can't remember how the differences affect the Ethernet. If this works, they could buy whichever suits the application... L553?

GaryS: This solution would be akin to "kicking the can down the road". Going with a Compact logix solution might be the next upgrade, several years from now.

 

[Ken Roach]

The cable on the Channel 0 serial port looks like it's connected to the 25-pin port on the beige box on the left, which I'd bet a box of donuts is a Practical Peripherals 2400 baud modem. Let's presume modern remote access will be over the Internet and that's not required.

I would search/replace the I:12 and O:12 addresses to substitute N-files. That avoids any module inhibit / overwrite or protocol/driver issues related specifically to the I and O files. Some HMI drivers specifically won't let you address I and O files just to avoid having to take those phone calls.

The SLC-5/05 had a history of firmware upgrades just like its cousins, but it's been flash-upgradeable for years. Series C hardware gets you 10/100 Ethernet; Series A and B will be 10 Mb/half duplex only, which is still screaming fast compared to every Data Highway family protocol.

Getting a touchscreen PC might be a lot faster than getting a hardware HMI. For a customer with a tight budget and tight schedule, of course the choice of HMI software (Wonderware, FTView, Indusoft, Ignition, AdvanceHMI) typically depends on your experience and comfort with one of them.

 

[5618]

They don't get a lot of love, but if it suits the environment I would probably use a 10" PanelView 800 on that to the serial port. I replaced a RIO PV550 on a SLC500 with a serial PV800 and it was pretty much as Ken described. I created two new integer files and replaced the I: and 0: references with those. IIRC, I imported the old application to FTView for convenience since I don't have Panelbuilder on my laptop and duplicated the displays, buttons, and indicators with View and CCW open on two displays. My local distributor has two of the 10" PV800 in stock.

 

[AutomationTechBrian]

Hmmm... panelview 800? I thought that was just for the micro 800 series, through ccw. And the operator station is a couple hundred feet away from the plc. I don't usually think of serial communication for that long of a run. Is that a consideration?

Otherwise, I might try Ignition. I already have one project started using ignition, but it's been delayed because of availability issues of machine components.

 

[Snyd1]

Hmmm... panelview 800? I thought that was just for the micro 800 series, through ccw.

I have used PV800 with micrologix line. This video seems to think you can use DH485 with the SLC...honestly didn't watch it though.

Note: DH485 good for 4000' so the google claims

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-Cw6grzu6U

 

[OkiePC]

I would look at the secondary market for a 5/05, but also consider using DH485 with good cable and proper termination. If the Ethernet cable distance is > 100m, is there a spot somewhere you could insert a switch to keep each cable below that?

In either case, my HMI of choice would be a Red Lion and if you order it last July, you can have it by Christmas.

I have used the RS485 port on many a Red Lion tied directly to the DH485 port on a 5/03 with excellent results. I have not had to go more than a couple dozen feet for HMI comms with DH485, but I do have some installations of RS485 (electrically the same) running as far as 700'.

 

[I_Automation]

The first think I would do is upgrade to at least a 5/05, or a CLX with an Ethernet module in the SLC rack. As far as buying a 5/05 I have seen them on eBay for under $1,000


One thing I have done, since I don't regularly use the ole PV PanelBuilder32 program, is when I print out a project to copy it I totally forget to open the Tag Editor and print that out. Also before printing that out adjust the column width so that the complete tag name shows as it will print as shown.

 

[TWS]

EZ Automation still makes a DH+/RIO HMI.
https://www.ezautomation.net/HMI-Human-Machine-Interface/eztouch-original/eztouch.php.
Data Sheet:https://store.ezautomation.net/v/vspfiles/pdf/EZTouch-Original-specs.pdf.

If it were me, I would talk to the customer about upgrading all of the PLC hardware.