Safety Comms between different brand PLC's

[Dayvieboy]

Hi,
Does anybody have experience with Ethernet/IP-CIP Safety comms
between 2 different brands of PLC's

I have a project with
1 Safety Allen Bradley PLC &
1 Safety Omron PLC

Both look to have CIP Safety (inside of Ethernet/IP) protocol

That would allow Sil3 comms between them & not need to hardwire the safety interlocks.

I have >30 years of AB experience & minimal Omron Experience years ago.

Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Dave

 

[ASF]

I've done plenty of AB-AB safety comms, but never between third party PLC's. So unfortunately I have nothing really useful to add, but I'm interested to hear how it works out!

 

[Rob...]

Possible - yes

Certified - Most likely not

 

[JesperMP]

Certified - Most likely not

Why ?

 

[JesperMP]

My "why" was aimed at Rob's input that a solution with different PLC brands will not be able to be certified.
As I see it, if both brands conform to Ethernet/IP-CIP Safety comms, I dont see why it would be different to connect 2 AB PLCs together.

 

[Dayvieboy]

Possible - yes

Certified - Most likely not

There are thousands 3rd party devices that speak "CIP Safety" protocol and we get certified in systems talking to Allen Bradley PLC's
Light curtains, Robots, Sick sensors, VFD's
So if the 2 PLC's will talk "CIP Safety" that would be a Sil3 rating

 

[mad4x4]

There are thousands 3rd party devices that speak "CIP Safety" protocol and we get certified in systems talking to Allen Bradley PLC's
Light curtains, Robots, Sick sensors, VFD's
So if the 2 PLC's will talk "CIP Safety" that would be a Sil3 rating

You would want 2 Different PLC's in a safety circuit in some cases, just like two different technologies of sensors. This would avoid commonality faults. Have seen the main system being Allen Brad. and the safety system is a Siemens S400 then the safety talks to the non-safety plc via modbus to report health status etc.

 

[JesperMP]

You would want 2 Different PLC's in a safety circuit in some cases, just like two different technologies of sensors. This would avoid commonality faults. Have seen the main system being Allen Brad. and the safety system is a Siemens S400 then the safety talks to the non-safety plc via modbus to report health status etc.

Not relevant to this thread.
He asks specifically for experience with CIP Safety between different brands.

 

[Rob...]

Why ?

Not saying it wouldn't meet the standard, but do you think Rockwell will offer a compliance certificate. You'd have to do your own verification and assessment.

Much like, if you program an E-Stop in Rockwell safety, you have to meet the example set in their knowledge base for them to certify it as Plx.

 

[PreLC]

So, what kind of CIP communication is it? Explicit or Implicit?

An example of CIP safety with alternative controllers is Fanuc robots. They have an AOP that you can install, or add the robot as a generic ethernet safe device. Once you do this, you get safety tags and regular tags that you can use in your logic. The tags created are Inputs and outputs both.

Try reading the Omron Ethernet/IP manual and see if you can get a generic ethernet IP device set up. This would be the way to start.

If you can give details about the processors, maybe people can help too.
Regards,
-PreLC

 

[Dayvieboy]

Not saying it wouldn't meet the standard, but do you think Rockwell will offer a compliance certificate. You'd have to do your own verification and assessment.

Being allowed to make my own assessment would sure be nice

Simplified version:

Say a machine has 8 PLC programmers working on it.
Each person has their own modules to write.

1. Code, (Especially Safety Rated) will be checked & verified by 2 or 3 other programmers.

2. It is then thoroughly tested on the tool by different Engineers (not from the PLC group)

3. This is all overseen by the in house Safety Compliance & Reliability Engineers.

4. Then a 3rd party Compliance Company is hired to look it all over & retest & verify everything on their own.

5. We make all Safety related changes requested, including mechanical, electrical, chemical etc.
. Resistance, we have learned, is pretty much futile & we comply with nearly all requests without pushing back.

6. When everybody is happy, 3rd party writes up a report & it ships with the machine.

If that machine will be shipped to 20 countries,
That 1 design must comply with the Safety rules of all 20 countries.
On top of those rules,
the end customers quite often also add to the Safety requirements which will also must be included in the 1 design.

That being said it is not all that hard to meet requirements after going through it a few times.
But can be tedious.

 

[Dayvieboy]

If you can give details about the processors, maybe people can help too.
Regards,
-PreLC

Thanks,

Main processor on the project is The newest Compact GuardLogix Sil3
5069-L350ERMS3

Subsystem is Omron
G9SP-N20S

I know when doing Safety AB - AB
You simply Produce & Consume tags in the
Class: Safety

I have looked in some manuals &
now waiting for a return call from the local Omron Rep

In the project we already have Ethernet/IP communications between AB &
B&R PLC
Keyence PLC
Treo Controller
But none of those PLC's are safety rated

 

[chelton]

Subsystem is Omron
G9SP-N20S

I wouldn't class a G9SP as a safety PLC.
It is a standalone safety controller. The ethernet option module does not support CIP Safety.

 

[PreLC]

I wouldn't class a G9SP as a safety PLC.
It is a standalone safety controller. The ethernet option module does not support CIP Safety.

I found this on Omron's website: https://industrial.omron.eu/en/products/cip-safety#specifications_ordering_info

This seem to have more info about how to spec a PLC that can do CIP safety.

@Dayvieboy, if this PLC isn't CIP safe, and is just rated as a safety PLC, then you'll have to hardwire safety IO. I would suggest CIP safety on Omron's side too, but if that's just not an option, you can utilize a CIP safe ArmorBlock connected to the AB PLC and integrate that with the safety of the Omron PLC. You'll be connecting 24V redundant safety signals. Worst case scenario.