Shift Register Help Wanted

[SLaubach]

I have a question, is it possible to eliminate the thumbwheel/operator action if you used photoelectric sensors to "measure" the rolls on the conveyor? Working with multiple lengths seems to require alot of actions via the operator, if the system knew the lengths then it could act/react on its on.

I have more questions if that is ok, I work in a paper converting industry too. We make rolls that are 24 to 40 inches wide but length of the paper can vary from a few inches to hundreds of inches. Some are wrapped individually and some in multiroll packages. I want to make sure I understand your centering process. When you state 10 or 20" is that the length of paper on the roll or the width/length of the roll itself? Since you mentioned centering the rolls for the wrapper and it had to be told the length to center properly (plus the use of a slitter machine) I take it the rolls are different in width/length not the paper length.

I think a photo sensor array could be used to measure the lengths and automatically adjust to center the rolls. Seems to me this offers best option not to get lost in a cycle because of missing roll etc.

Seems an indexing (or would that be sequencing) routine could be created using the OIT to enter the variables (roll lengths) and/or order they appear.

I cant wait to see the answers, I try to come up with things that will work in scenarios like this and then wait to see what the pros come up with and the details of implementation.

Ron
I tried the photo eye approach, it worked fine for centering the rolls but failed miserably during the seperation process.

when i speak of length i mean the " web width" not the lenght of the roll when unrolled. one end of the core to the other.

i will try to sketch a picture to help everyone understand

 

[SLaubach]

Here are the machine steps:

1. the slitting machine cuts 5 rolls off a large roll they are 10",20",30",40"an 50".

2. the rolls are then transported to the wrapping machine trolley, where the operator will enter the lengths of each cut on an OIT.
the OIT will allow each roll to either be sent directly to the wrapper or staged in an orphan bin to be wrapped together later with other same size rolls.

3. lets say the 10" roll will go to orphan bin #1 and wait until onother 10" roll is cut.

4. the other 4 rolls go dirctly to the wrapper and are wrapped seperatly. in order from small to big.

5. just before the roll inters the wrapping conveyor the operator will enter the length on the thumbwheel 20. 30, 40, or 50.

6. it will then jog the staging and wrapping convey fwd for a short period decided by the thumbwheel.

7. after this short time base the staging conveyor will stop to allow the rolls to be split and just the 20" to continue on to the center of the wrapper, also a function of the thumbwheel.

8. the machine will continue untill all are wrapped, remember the 10" roll is still in orphan 1.

9. by this time a new set of rolls are ready to be wrapped, the NEW 10" roll is dropped off at the orphan bin 1 and the rest of the rolls are wrapped again.

10. now the cart will go pick up both 10" rolls and wrap them together as one 20" bundle.


11. the whole process will begin again.

Sorry terry for they reply, BAD DAY and its ony 11am

HERE IS A RUDE SKETCH THAT MAY HELP
[attachment]

 

[Terry Woods]

Yeah, I know... bad days happen... try hanging around here answering questions everyday. Wanting to help and not being able to help is every bit as frustrating as needing help.

In the case of teaching or questioning, for the purpose of learning, it behooves the Transmitter (the Teacher or Questioner) to speak in a manner that can be understood by the Receiver (the Student or Potential Respondent)!

If you ask a question in Sanskrit... None of us can help you - Really!

Yeah, yeah, yeah... I know... I'm kinda anal about the details. BUT...
And, this is the BIG ONE.... DETAILS COUNT! Rational, Complete, Accurate and Concise details must be specified. In the game of Process Control, no matter how small the system, the DETAILS are EVERYTHING !!!!!!! (Do I need to put a few more Exclamation Points in there to make the point?)

It's ridiculous to expect a meaningful answer to... "I want to put the thingee into the thing-a-ma-bob. Can you help?"

I was gonna suggest that you read the "NEW HERE" at the top of the page so you could get a feel for what we (the Regulars and the "Baker Street Irregulars"- the long-timers, don't cha know?) are trying to do... but it just ain't the same anymore. (I still have a copy of the original...hmmm)

Anyway, on with our story... (and my pointed questions)

SL said...

Here are the machine steps:

1. the slitting machine cuts 5 rolls off a large roll they are 10",20",30",40"an 50".

Referring to Step-2, the following question occurs regarding Step-1...
Does the slicer cut 5-rolls of 10", OR 5-rolls of 20", OR 5-rolls of.... etc?
-or- , combinations?

We can't see the machine, we don't know the details and we certainly don't know what you know! --Unless you tell us!

2. The rolls are then transported to the wrapping machine trolley, where the operator will enter the lengths of each cut on an OIT. The OIT will allow each roll to either be sent directly to the wrapper or staged in an orphan bin to be wrapped together later with other same size rolls.

I don't see a "Wrapping Machine Trolley" in your figure. Could you be referring to the "Roll Delivery Trolley"?
Is this a case of, the "Trolley" has a set of rolls, of various widths, and the operator needs to enter, in the proper order, the sizes of the rolls that are on the trolley? Which raises the question I asked at Step-1... What kind of combinations might we expect to see?

3. lets say the 10" roll will go to orphan bin #1 and wait until another 10" roll is cut.

What waits? And what exactly is it waiting for?

4. The other 4 rolls go directly to the wrapper and are wrapped separately. In order from small to big.

Huh??? What criterion do you use for determining what goes where? What is your general scheme? (Please describe, more specifically than you have 'til now.)

5. Just before the roll enters the wrapping conveyor, the operator will enter the length on the thumb-wheel 20. 30, 40, or 50.

Since you indicated in Step-4 that there may be a few different sizes wrapped "In order from small to big.", then... does the operator have to key-in as wrapping is done?

6. It will then jog the staging and wrapping conveyor fwd for a short period decided by the thumb-wheel.

What is "It"? And, what makes "It" decide to jog?

7. After this short time base the staging conveyor will stop to allow the rolls to be split and just the 20" to continue on to the center of the wrapper, also a function of the thumbwheel.

I AM sorry, man. I just can't "see" what you know and I just don't understand your description! Your description is simply not rational. It might be accurate for the steps it describes but it is not complete!

I AM ANXIOUS TO HELP !!! As are others -- I guarantee it !!!(Read the NEW HERE!).

But, you've got to help us help you!

Think very carefully about Cause and Effect, as well as your intended Effect. DETAILS COUNT !!!

 

[ganutenator]

I only read a couple of the posts, so ignore me if I am off in the wrong direction.

you need a photo-eye and an encoder.

when the roll is going down the conveyor and enters the last conveyor (the one with the encoder on it), you can used the photo-eye to capture the leading edge of the roll, and the encoder to capture the length of the roll). On trailing edge of the photo-eye since you now know the length of the roll, you will now know how to center the machine or whatever.

 

[ganutenator]

If you just want to shift bits in a word. You know that you could just keep multiplying or dividing by two right? - may be easier to program - just a thought.

The problem with shifting just bits, is that you can't store any information for the object that you are tracking.

If you shift words, then you can store info, like an index pointer or something. This index pointer could be used to store tons of info. Like, it could point into a barcode storage array, sort type array, time and date stamp..... you name it.

An example of a tracking register in use (tire going down a conveyor) .....

333330000000022222000000111100000

See.... each time a new tire entered the conveyor, it would be given a sequence # (i.e. 1, 2, or 3 ....). When the encoder pulsed (1 pulse per in.) AND the photoeye was blocked, the sequence number was copied into the first register. As soon as the photo-eye went clear, zero's were copied into the first tracking register. And every three encoder pulses, the whole tracking register was shifted. So..... we could now tell how long a tire was. Tire #2 would be 15" long (3 x 5), and tire #1 would be 12" long (3 x 4). The fact that tire was called number 3 (instead of just a one or zero), it could be used to store tons of information about that tire.


This was all done with one move and one copy command. Move command operates on the photo-eye and the copy command operates on three encoder pulses.


Hope this can be useful to someone.


--- I'm hungry, and I don't know why....

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

Visit a lumber mill/sorter for inspiration.

A lumber sorter has a scanner that scans the lumber, cuts it and sorts its all with little or any human intervention. It uses the best of the techniques discussed above. The people that make lumber systems are quite adept at sequencing lumber through the mill.

I think ganutenator is on the right track except there appears to be no encoder in SLaubach's system.

SLaubach must first figure out the mechanics and sensors the system requires to track the rolls BEFORE getting bogged down in programming details which are then trivial.

 

[SLaubach]

SL said...

Here are the machine steps:

1. the slitting machine cuts 5 rolls off a large roll they are 10",20",30",40"an 50".

Referring to Step-2, the following question occurs regarding Step-1...
Does the slicer cut 5-rolls of 10", OR 5-rolls of 20", OR 5-rolls of.... etc?
-or- , combinations?

It can be a combo of various widths, the roll size beginning at the slitter is 200" which will be cut down to whatever the end user defines. 10" to 200" if need be, it is even bossible to have 20 10" cuts.

We can't see the machine, we don't know the details and we certainly don't know what you know! --Unless you tell us!

2. The rolls are then transported to the wrapping machine trolley, where the operator will enter the lengths of each cut on an OIT. The OIT will allow each roll to either be sent directly to the wrapper or staged in an orphan bin to be wrapped together later with other same size rolls.

I don't see a "Wrapping Machine Trolley" in your figure. Could you be referring to the "Roll Delivery Trolley"?
Is this a case of, the "Trolley" has a set of rolls, of various widths, and the operator needs to enter, in the proper order, the sizes of the rolls that are on the trolley? Which raises the question I asked at Step-1... What kind of combinations might we expect to see?

"Wrapping Machine Trolley" = "Roll Delivery Trolley" just thought it would define the funtion easier. the operator will enter the cut (amount and size) on the OIT. this will tell the trolley where to go. He will then need to enter the size just before the roll enters the "wrapping conveyor" via thumbwheel..


3. lets say the 10" roll will go to orphan bin #1 and wait until another 10" roll is cut.

What waits? And what exactly is it waiting for?

the 10" roll waits for another 10" roll from the next set of cuts made from the slitter 200" roll. it will process the rest of the rolls 20, 30, 40 and 50. then go back to pick up another whole set from the slitter and drop of the 10" with the others.


process the 20-50" again and then go get the 2 10" rolls to be processed prior to starting the whole operation again.

4. The other 4 rolls go directly to the wrapper and are wrapped separately. In order from small to big.

Huh??? What criterion do you use for determining what goes where? What is your general scheme? (Please describe, more specifically than you have 'til now.)

at the OIT the rolls are assigned "groups" group 1 may be 1 20" roll to go directly to the wrapper, and group 2 is 1 30" to go directly to the wrapper. 3, 4, and 5 would be 30, 40, 50.


group 6 would be the 10" in the orphan bin waiting for the next 10". orphan bins have a data entry point allowing the operator to input how many rolls would be considered a bundle, in this case 2 10" rolls.

5. Just before the roll enters the wrapping conveyor, the operator will enter the length on the thumb-wheel 20. 30, 40, or 50.

Since you indicated in Step-4 that there may be a few different sizes wrapped "In order from small to big.", then... does the operator have to key-in as wrapping is done?

just before the roll enters the wrapper the operator can change the thumbwheel data, he will the press the "start" button which will move this vale into the register that sets the "split timer" and the centering timer"
split timer is used to seperate rolls on the staging conveyor, remember the 20, 30...... have all been discharged onto the staging conveyor. so the staging and wrapping conv will jog fwd, the stage will stop at the timer dn bit and the wrapper convey will continue on it way.

6. It will then jog the staging and wrapping conveyor fwd for a short period decided by the thumb-wheel.

What is "It"? And, what makes "It" decide to jog?

see above.


7. After this short time base the staging conveyor will stop to allow the rolls to be split and just the 20" to continue on to the center of the wrapper, also a function of the thumbwheel.

I AM sorry, man. I just can't "see" what you know and I just don't understand your description! Your description is simply not rational. It might be accurate for the steps it describes but it is not complete!

I AM ANXIOUS TO HELP !!! As are others -- I guarantee it !!!(Read the NEW HERE!).

But, you've got to help us help you!

Think very carefully about Cause and Effect, as well as your intended Effect. DETAILS COUNT !!! [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[SLaubach]

ALL REPLIES IN BLUE...


Here are the machine steps:

1. the slitting machine cuts 5 rolls off a large roll they are 10",20",30",40"an 50".

Referring to Step-2, the following question occurs regarding Step-1...
Does the slicer cut 5-rolls of 10", OR 5-rolls of 20", OR 5-rolls of.... etc?
-or- , combinations?

It can be a combo of various widths, the roll size beginning at the slitter is 200" which will be cut down to whatever the end user defines. 10" to 200" if need be, it is even bossible to have 20 10" cuts.

We can't see the machine, we don't know the details and we certainly don't know what you know! --Unless you tell us!

2. The rolls are then transported to the wrapping machine trolley, where the operator will enter the lengths of each cut on an OIT. The OIT will allow each roll to either be sent directly to the wrapper or staged in an orphan bin to be wrapped together later with other same size rolls.

I don't see a "Wrapping Machine Trolley" in your figure. Could you be referring to the "Roll Delivery Trolley"?
Is this a case of, the "Trolley" has a set of rolls, of various widths, and the operator needs to enter, in the proper order, the sizes of the rolls that are on the trolley? Which raises the question I asked at Step-1... What kind of combinations might we expect to see?

"Wrapping Machine Trolley" = "Roll Delivery Trolley" just thought it would define the funtion easier. the operator will enter the cut (amount and size) on the OIT. this will tell the trolley where to go. He will then need to enter the size just before the roll enters the "wrapping conveyor" via thumbwheel..


3. lets say the 10" roll will go to orphan bin #1 and wait until another 10" roll is cut.

What waits? And what exactly is it waiting for?

the 10" roll waits for another 10" roll from the next set of cuts made from the slitter 200" roll. it will process the rest of the rolls 20, 30, 40 and 50. then go back to pick up another whole set from the slitter and drop of the 10" with the others.


process the 20-50" again and then go get the 2 10" rolls to be processed prior to starting the whole operation again.

4. The other 4 rolls go directly to the wrapper and are wrapped separately. In order from small to big.

Huh??? What criterion do you use for determining what goes where? What is your general scheme? (Please describe, more specifically than you have 'til now.)

at the OIT the rolls are assigned "groups" group 1 may be 1 20" roll to go directly to the wrapper, and group 2 is 1 30" to go directly to the wrapper. 3, 4, and 5 would be 30, 40, 50.


group 6 would be the 10" in the orphan bin waiting for the next 10". orphan bins have a data entry point allowing the operator to input how many rolls would be considered a bundle, in this case 2 10" rolls.

5. Just before the roll enters the wrapping conveyor, the operator will enter the length on the thumb-wheel 20. 30, 40, or 50.

Since you indicated in Step-4 that there may be a few different sizes wrapped "In order from small to big.", then... does the operator have to key-in as wrapping is done?

just before the roll enters the wrapper the operator can change the thumbwheel data, he will the press the "start" button which will move this vale into the register that sets the "split timer" and the centering timer"
split timer is used to seperate rolls on the staging conveyor, remember the 20, 30...... have all been discharged onto the staging conveyor. so the staging and wrapping conv will jog fwd, the stage will stop at the timer dn bit and the wrapper convey will continue on it way.

6. It will then jog the staging and wrapping conveyor fwd for a short period decided by the thumb-wheel.

What is "It"? And, what makes "It" decide to jog?

see above.