Smart relay crossover

[WhinnieThePooh]

Hi guys, I am looking for a good replacement for an Omron smart relay. A customer of ours has a couple of these and they are beginning to fail. As this line of Omron smart relays is obsolete we were originally going to use Zelios to replace them, however the inputs on the Omron are wired NPN, and unfortunately the Zelios do not support NPN inputs.
Does anybody have a suggestion for a good replacement?

Part number of Omron ZEN: 20C1DR-D-V2

Datasheet:https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/307/zen_ds_e_5_2_csm106-1109483.pdf

 

[IO_Rack]

Does it have to be a smart relay?

Omron's CP1L series PLC is small, inexpensive, and has those exact specifications.

 

[WhinnieThePooh]

No, it does not have to be a smart relay. One thing it has to have is robust relay outputs rated for at least 8A. We have considered using a PLC with external interface relays, but that requires more time and cost to upgrade. It may be what we have to do though.

 

[5618]

If your IO is 8 in, 4 out or less, I would consider Micro810 2080-LC10-12QWB. I think the inputs work for source or sink, and all four output relays are 8A. In a quick lookup for this post, I discovered the M810 line has been expanded beyond the 12 point modules we have used, so higher IO counts are now available.

Some older models might have had two 8A and two 4A relays which I didn't see in the newer brochure I found. I didn't spend a lot of time yet researching what has been changed with the model expansion.

CCW gets a lot of hate for some valid reasons, but I don't mind it these days for stuff like the M810. On the M810 we used, we added the display and programmed status and troubleshooting messages displayed during operation.

You would need one USB interface module for programming.

 

[WhinnieThePooh]

The IO count requirement is 12 IN 8 OUT. So the base unit needs to have that or be compatible with expansion modules.

In a quick lookup for this post, I discovered the M810 line has been expanded beyond the 12 point modules we have used, so higher IO counts are now available.

Was this on Rockwells website? I can only find the 12 IO model.

If there is a Micro810 that would fit the IO requirements, I would seriously consider it.

 

[BryanG]

An 8Amp load, isn't an 8Amp load, isn't and 8Amp load, what I mean is, it depends on what you are switching on whether an 8Amp relay can switch a load of 8Amps. A relay that can easily switch an 8Amp resistive load, may fail quickly if it is switching an 8Amp inductive or capacitive load. An 8Amp relay that is OK switching an AC inductive load may fail quickly if switching an 8Amp DC inductive load.

So, what is the load, and do you really want to push an output relay to its limit?

The way I figure it, relays are cheap and easy to replace, PLCs/Smart Relays are a lot less cheap, and if they go obsolete they can be a pain in the backside to replace.

 

[WhinnieThePooh]

An 8Amp load, isn't an 8Amp load, isn't and 8Amp load, what I mean is, it depends on what you are switching on whether an 8Amp relay can switch a load of 8Amps. A relay that can easily switch an 8Amp resistive load, may fail quickly if it is switching an 8Amp inductive or capacitive load. An 8Amp relay that is OK switching an AC inductive load may fail quickly if switching an 8Amp DC inductive load.

So, what is the load, and do you really want to push an output relay to its limit?

The way I figure it, relays are cheap and easy to replace, PLCs/Smart Relays are a lot less cheap, and if they go obsolete they can be a pain in the backside to replace.

I see your point with using external relays, however keep in mind we are not engineering a new system, just upgrading something that already exists. So matching a new controller spec for spec is the easiest option.

The outputs on the OMRON controller are rated for a 8A resistive load @ 250VAC, but I know that none of the load devices come anywhere close to drawing that much current. It just helps the overall longevity of the outputs to oversize them.

 

[5618]

I had not seen this until yesterday. Here's where I found reference to an expanded M810 line:

https://configurator.rockwellautomation.com/api/Doc/2080-br001_-en-p.pdf

Edit: maybe that's an old document that didn't happen. It's got a 2011 date and doesn't list the M820 or M870. Perhaps that was plan A and the larger count IO got split off to the 820 and others.

Another edit: yeah, that's an oldie that didn't happen. Get it for your digital collection of obscure documents while you can. It shows CCW compatible with XP, Vista, and 7 with recommended RAM of 1024 MB.

 

[Ken Moore]

I have used TECO (now labled IDEC) smart relays, for use around farms. 10amp relay outputs, with an expansion module for 8 outputs will run around $300

https://tecotechnology.com/search?q=smartrelay

 

[alan_505]

I just tried to create a project in CCW using an 810 and it only listed 12-point models.
If you need higher IO count you will need to use a 820 or bigger.

 

[WhinnieThePooh]

I have used TECO (now labled IDEC) smart relays, for use around farms. 10amp relay outputs, with an expansion module for 8 outputs will run around $300

https://tecotechnology.com/search?q=smartrelay

Do these support NPN/Sinking inputs? I can't seem to find this in their literature.

 

[RoTaTech]

You have likely already thought of this, but are your input devices re-configurable? i.e. if they are just dry contact limit switches and the like, you could merely switch the polarity of the common wire.

 

[WhinnieThePooh]

Yes, it would be possible to switch wiring and sensors around. It just makes for more work and cost. As I stated before, I am looking to find out if there is a smart relay that would meet the requirements. Its looking like there might not be.

A nice way to solve this problem would be to use a PLC with external relays for the outputs. We just have to convince the customer, who is rather cost conscious by the way, that it would be the only way forward.

Edit: @RoTaTech, The inputs are all photo eyes.

 

[Ken Moore]

Do these support NPN/Sinking inputs? I can't seem to find this in their literature.

Better information here: https://us.idec.com/idec-us/en/USD/Programmable-Logic-Controller/SmartRelay/c/Smart_Relay


I found where on certain models, the ac/dc inputs are listed as NPN or PNP.

 

[WhinnieThePooh]

Excellent! I'm thinking this will work.

Thankyou guys!