Synchro motor

Balls Ache

Member
Join Date
Oct 2002
Location
Ayrshire, Scotland
Posts
16
Hi
At work we have a new machine with synchro motors fitted. I am reasonably up to speed with asynchro motors and AC inverters (I've learned a lot reading DickDV's replies and I hope he is reading this).As I am keen to know more, ie running at synchronous speed how does the motor develop torque?
There is no slip involved?
If anyone can give a short explanation on the theory of how synchro motors work and what the advantages over asynchro are, I would much appreciate.

Thanks in advance.
Balls Ache.
 
Balls Ache,

What you have asked is a difficult question to answer (for me anyway), I know a little behind the theory of synchronous motors, as I have never worked with the little blighters I am not really up to speed on them and hopefully someone with more knowledge of these machines will add their 2 cents worth, also if I have got any information wrong then maybe someone will correct me.

Synchronous motors usually have 2 ‘fields’, the standard stator one, which is excited by AC at a fixed frequency and a DC excited rotor fed by slip rings. These motors can be run up to sync speed by another machine then connected to the AC supply busbars, or they can be started as an induction motor then have the DC part switched on to bring them up to sync speed, the load is not usually applied to these motors until it is running at sync speed.

Explaining about the torque is a bit difficult, but basically any change in load on the motor will cause a change in its power factor and also a corresponding change in current and input power. A change in excitation will also have the same effect as a change in load.

I wouldn’t know what the advantages are, apart from they run at unity power factor.

That is about the extent of my knowledge on synchronous machines, I hope I have got it right.

Paul

P.S If I have got it totally wrong, then someone please tell me, I have no problem with someone putting me right on this.
 
Balls Ache,


The main difference between synchronous to Asynchronous is that if you want to run the motor 1.2RPM, it moves exactly . With Asynchronous motor, you get a rotation of the rotor in roughly The movement you get depends on lots of factors, like load. synchronous means you get what you ask for. Asynchronous means that the rotor does approximately what you ask for.

so Synchronous motors are more complicated to build and control. That's why you see price difference . But they can do nice things, good precision positioning , high torque at zero speed.

For more info http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/MOTORPRINTUT.html
The theory behind explain pretty well.
 
Since the synchronous motors are part of a machine, I make the assumption that they are not the wound rotor, DC excited, slip ring motor described by PLucas. Rather, they are probably smaller permanent magnet synchronous motors. They are generally used when precise speed regulation is needed and there is no precision inverter involved.

Rather than magnetize their rotors indirectly by slipping as in an induction motor, these expensive little rascals have a rare earth permanent magnet rotor. There is no need for slip since the rotor is always fully magnetized. As a result, the motor rotor will turn at exactly the same speed as the spinning stator field which is determined by the number of poles and the frequency the same as in an induction motor. From no load to full rated load, the rotor turns at exactly the same speed. If the torque exceeds the rated torque of the motor, my understanding is that the motor essentially gives up and stalls. I have never seen a torque-speed curve for a permanent magnet sync motor but I am quite sure that there is no useable torque anywhere except when the rotor and the stator are properly "hooked up" in sync. For this reason, there is no way to start a purely synchronous motor across the line. When fed by an inverter, however, a stationary motor can be supplied near zero frequency and the speed can be increased synchronously up to desired running speed (as long as the rated torque is not exceeded).

PLucas describes a wound rotor synchronous motor which is old technology and in my experience is generally found on compressors or other machines that run continuously in a plant operation. It is started by separate windings built in that convert it to an induction motor of just enough torque to get the rotor up to speed unloaded. Once up to sync speed, it converts to synchronous operation and the load is applied to the shaft. One of the primary purposes of these motors was to provide power factor correction for the facility. This is done by varying the excitation. If underexcited, the power factor lags and if overexcited, it leads. Most are therefore overexcited to offset inductive loads elsewhere in the facility. Some of the exciters were designed to monitor p.f. and automatically change the excitation to hold the p.f. constant. These machines are getting rather scarce.

Returning to permanent magnet motors on inverters, control has to be very delicate because very small changes in inverter output frequency translate into instant attempts by the motor to match the change. Large torque and current spikes can result with the drive tripping or the motor exceeding its rated torque and "unhooking". I would expect that the accel/decel ramp rates would be critical and a current limit function that automatically modifies the accel ramp would be essential too.

I must confess that I have had limited experience with these motors. Since I have available a fine precision speed regulating drive at competitive pricing, I would have very little need to use such expensive motors. If anyone has more experience with these motors, I would sure welcome their input. Anybody out there?
 
Could you please describe us whwt that machine are doing and this motor in particularly.
in that way we can try to understand the reasons why they use synchronous motor.
 
DickDV said:
PLucas describes a wound rotor synchronous motor which is old technology

I think that goes to show you when I 'learnt' about these beasts, some 20 years ago!

I imagined that technology had moved on since then, but rather than look it up I gave balls ache a 'history' lesson. :D

Thanks for putting me right Dick.

Paul
 
Hi, and thanks to all who replied. DickDV is correct these motors are the permanent magnet type.
The machine is a Krones (Germany) labelling machine. The machine carousel is driven with fairly large (?KW) synchro motor, speed controlled by a Danfoss inverter, it at least looks like an inverter?.
The three individual label applicators are driven by their own synchro motor. The manufacturers claim is this set up acheives greater accuracy compared to traditional methods.

The reason for this post was I wanted to learn more about this type of motor and i have found this site to be great for learning about motors/drives and PLCs too!
If anyone wishes to add any further tips/comments please do so.

Thanks again, Balls Ache
 
I found out some label applicators with synchro motor. The manufacturers claim its cheaper then servo motor and have more power then step motor.The label applicators wark 90-100 time in minute.
I didnt connect label applicators to synchro motor.until now.
I install many of Avery label applicators but thay work with step motor.
 
I am having a nagging feeling here... so I will ask an extremely stupid question (and I am profusely apologizing for doing so).

What is the difference between a synchronous permanent-magnet 3 phase AC motor and a brushless servo motor? You know, one of those with 3 phase AC windings and a permanent magnet rotor...

If someone fits the former with a position feedback device (such as an encoder) - would it make it the latter?..

:sick:
 
Doggone, LadderLogic! I've got that same nasty nagging feeling! I don't have an answer for you because I have never been able to tell the difference.

And, since I don't use either motor normally, I've never really needed a definitive answer.

But, I think I am in the same camp as you suspecting that they just might be the same device, maybe with an absolute encoder added to gain the servo title.

You've made my day with your question! What a relief to find someone with the same strange suspicions!!
 
Terry started another thread about the async and synchronous so I will just add my 2 cents worth/
speed controlled by a Danfoss inverter, it at least looks like an inverter?.

Be prepared to learn alot about Danfoss drives too.
 
Wow! I am blushing (is there a smile for that?) My question has started another thread...

To the point of this one: I suspect that Balls Ache got confused somehow... probably by not-so-professional translation of his machine manuals from German into English (ever read some Japanese manuals, anyone?).

Balls, does the carousel motor ever stop at certain positions? If it does, what holds it - some kind of mechanical latch or the motor's torque? Is there an encoder or a resolver at the motor's rear end?

If any of these is true, you are probably dealing with a good old servo motor, driven not by an "inverter", but by a "servo drive" (sometimes called a "servo amp"). This would make perfect sense, since servos are very common in industrial automation these days...
 

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