What is wrong with people?

[Peter Nachtwey]

1. It appears that the majority of questions relate to either Allen Bradley or Siemens products.

I don't know if you are observing, boasting or complaining. I know I would not be happy if people asked the same question over and over again about my product. To me that indicates a flaw in design or documentatin.

We also have customers that will call us with questions that can be answered by simply reading the manual. We continue to answer the same questions, because that is customer support....They ask, we answer...lol.

Same here. We try to have excellent documentation but there are some that just will not even try.

2. Every semester you get a new group of students looking for help, with the same curriculum...therefore the same questions.

When I was in college we always asked the upper classmen about the courses and test, but there was also a file that our fraternity had on different classes. Homework problems and tests were submitted to the file cabinet and the freshmen would fight over access to this information. The point is that we were very much aware that the sophomores took the class the previous year.

It had been suggested at one time to create an archive section with threads related to common questions asked by students.

exactly, but.....

I know this would take time on Phil's part to actually set up. One would have to ask, if it were to be done, would it be used? As mentioned above, "instant everything".

That is the million dollar questions.

3. It had be mentioned in a previous post that the search function doesn't always produce the most favorable results. I have used the search function only a handful of times, therefore, I don't believe I can comment as to it's effectiveness.

as stated above it is best to type the name of the person and the key words.

You had also mentioned that with new products, come new problems. Even with existing products that have been revised, new problems arise. I believe this relates to point one - the documentation provided by the manufacturer and access to their support system.

A lot of the time products from different manufacturers must work together which is often what we see. How is each manufacturer going to document all the different combinations?

One would have to ask, are the amount of questions related to specific products related to documentation, accessibility to support or a quick fix (or maybe something else). (Casey...I smell a poll - Why do you post your question on the forum?)

That would be a good poll and it gets back to one of my other favorite topics about support. Some people think that support means reading the manual to them. Other think it is for the weird undocumented things that happen. In this case Stephen has it easy. Rockwell and Siemens that have so many things that can be used with other things they sell that I doubt all the combinations can be tested and I am sure weird stuff happens from time to time. These are the situations where support is needed because no one can document everything. Even if one could would any body have the time to read it all? These are the kinds of problem that are truly firsts.

The longer you are involved with anything...including life, you will see cycles, repetition and trends. It appears that on this forum, the time is much more condensed because of what is stated above.

I think it is a spiral.

 

[hounddog]

i use this site all of the time, and i am not even close to being considered one of the smart ones, but i feel like if you have a problem with someone asking a question that may have already been asked in some form or fashion, then just ignore it and go on, why spend time complaining or even waste your time trying to figure out why someone would ask such a stupid time.

i think this site is great and yes i know i have asked questions that i am sure was asked in some form or fashion, but i am very glad there are folks who tried to help, even if they did think it may have been a stupid question, to me it was not or I would not have asked.

 

[rsdoran]

I have no problem with answering questions, even those redundant ones that students ask each year or quarter.

Hell, ask me what the average big toe size is and I will provide an answer.
AS I have mentioned in the past what "IRKS" me is those WITH THE POSITIONS that asks those questions. These are the people that can read and find many answers to simple questions.

 

[allscott]

I have no problem with answering questions, even those redundant ones that students ask each year or quarter.

Hell, ask me what the average big toe size is and I will provide an answer.
AS I have mentioned in the past what "IRKS" me is those WITH THE POSITIONS that asks those questions. These are the people that can read and find many answers to simple questions.

I'll bite, what is the average "big toe size"?

 

[Stephen Luft]

Peter,


It was merely my observation as to the number of threads that are related to Siemens and AB. All one has to do is view the headings of the topics to see that the majority of posts relate to these two manufacturers.

With regards to devices from various manufacturers interfacing together...I believe it to be protocol based. The protocol whether Device Net, Profibus, ModBus...is the protocol. For companies that offer these protocols, I would have to believe the documentation is available. How good it is, I can't comment.

The point is, if you have developed something that is used to interface to other devices, chances are it is documented in one way, shape or form.

I would also like to know more about what people think support is and what it should be...not to mention what is the manufacturer's responsibility to their customers.

 

[shiftedbits]

Here's a suggestion,

How about a bunch of option buttons (check boxes) that one can click while posting (Ie. PLC type, Analog, Discreet etc. that can later be used for filtering a search?

 

[Hakutsuru]

I just noticed the section at the bottom that gives similar topics. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be too useful. Anyway, I still like the idea of a different forum for the class assignments, and here's a way to combat the fact that people wont use it. Lets leave this 'Live Q&A' for them, and leave it at the top of the list as the default forum, and make a boring sounding forum for us to post in. Something like
Real life PLC problems
Connundrums in modern controls
Lets talk about our achy joints
Shifting Paradigms in our favor
Boils and oter nasty maladies, you'll get em one day too, punk.
Foot fungus blogs

I was also thinking the homework forum (if we did it) should have a sticky saying, basically, "We've probably answered your question before, do a search on it, oh and BTW, we really think you should strongly consider doing your own homework. Only cheating yourself, and all that jazz" Course, the problem with that is that none of them would read the stickies. So then I wondered if it was possible to set up an auto-response to every new thread, that says the same thing, and adds in, "BTW this is an auto response because we know you didn't read the sticky ... vee haff are vays ov knowing dees tings."


-jeff

 

[geniusintraining]

....

Jeff,

Have you ever thought of switching to decaffeinated coffee?

 

[jdbrandt]

The best thing that could ever happen would be for Phil to sticky a thread right at the top called "Traffic Light Homework Solution" complete with a working ladder logic diagram. Maybe teachers would stop assigning this stupid problem.

There, that's my rant for the week.

Well, when I taught PLCs, I gave the traffic light problem, but we kept doing it over and over, bunches of different ways. The 'six timer' version, the 'three timer version', the 'one timer version', and my personal favorite, the 'NO timer version'.

Better yet, (not that any of us have the time to organize it) a friendly game of 'who can write the most complicated traffic light program'...by platform. Now, there'd be some stuff worth reading!

 

[RazorRob305]

Ok...I am new here and I have just spent 5 minutes reading this thread and another 20 minutes before that searching for a basic answer about how to create a ladder logic diagram for an elevator.

I spent about 3 days reading my text book named Programmable Logic Controllers Third edition from Frank D. Petruzella trying to finish one last homework problem I had and have not been able to figure it out yet. So, for me I spent a lot of wasted time on one little homework problem (which I do need to learn) while the next week of problems are coming up soon.

So, instead of me being told to look here and look there why not just show a similar example of my problem and make me figure out how to do the one I'm working on by myself after that? Some people like me need to see how things work before we can figure the steps out.

If I see a guy making a pizza and watch each step as he slaps the dough, then puts the sauce on, and then puts the toppings on, and then puts it in the oven and cuts it after it cooks then I can understand the reason why I slap the dough a certain way instead of not seeing an end result and wondering why do I do it this specific way instead of this other way for like 3 days in my mind. That is what I would call a waste of time.

 

[jdbrandt]

Let me be the first to say that "there are many ways up the mountain" where programming is concerned. There was an old file floating around the internet not long ago about the infamous "Hello, World" program, as written thru a guy's career, from BASIC thru to Management. Funny stuff.

Your comment about the pizza is spot-on. My only advice, after banging out rungs for over 20 years (!) is that the program needs to do the job first, and be fancy later.

If you think too hard, you'll never get started.

Start and Stop a motor with two inputs and one output.
THEN (and only then), ask yourself: "What if..."

This will drive you to stuff like 'stuck button logic', overload recovery, and on, and on, and on.

Pizza is a basic food, yet everybody puts their own spin (!) on it, and we have all the different types.

So, go out and buy yourself a little cheapy PLC (AB has a small one, really cheap and free software), .... write some code, and THEN, make it better.

For the other guys here who actually do this for a living, there is always an interplay between the 'perfect program' and the 'working perfectly' program. The difference between the two is the difference between PROFIT and PERFECTION.

 

[Brijm]

There was an old file floating around the internet not long ago about the infamous "Hello, World" program, as written thru a guy's career, from BASIC thru to Management. Funny stuff.

I missed that one... don't suppose you have a link, or search terms I can use... I couldn't find this, but it sounds like the geek in me would like it.

-Brian

 

[jdbrandt]

I missed that one... don't suppose you have a link, or search terms I can use... I couldn't find this, but it sounds like the geek in me would like it.

-Brian

I googled :
hello world humor

and a bunch came up

The header is something like this:
A compilation of *Hello World programs* designed by
various categories of *developer* follows

 

[shawn_75]

Better yet, (not that any of us have the time to organize it) a friendly game of 'who can write the most complicated traffic light program'...by platform. Now, there'd be some stuff worth reading!

Okay, now that's funny. I'm envisioning a program with a PID.

 

[SMOKE]

I have to laugh about the traffic light test. Since we have new age software I did one in a couple of long long rungs with coils, and branches everywhere.

Perter you are a gem amongst the stones, I am glad you still answer.

I have had failed searches, but I just didn't ask correctly. I guess.

Last while my questions do not get an answer unless I go into stupid me mode. Usually not PLC related.