Micrologix830 to HMI

dlweber said:

If I get HMI approval I will look into figuring out how to do that then. I seen a post where people were talking about using aliases to reach the local variables, but I do not know if that is the same issue you are mentioning.

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No, that is a different issue with a different controller.

If you look in CCW you will find a table to move the data into the MODBUS address space.

Thanks a lot, I appreciate it.

dlweber said:

...I have a MicroLogix 830, I am tossing around the idea of putting an HMI on it, we currently have EZTouch panels all around the plant. When I select the micrologix family in its software it will not accept tagnames, it wants traditional addresses, I found out they are not compatible with the 800 series just the 1000+ series...

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In case you are still thinking as per your first post, just be careful...

While they might share the prefix "Micro", the "Micro800" and "MicroLogix" family of controllers are completely different animals and should not be confused as having anything directly to do with each other.

Attached is a screenshot of the Modbus Mapping in CCW, with some example tags mapped to Modbus registers.

Mark- said:

...the only protocol for the 830 is MODBUS...

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FYI...

The Micro830 serial port also supports CIP Serial, but this is primarily for communications with PanelView Component terminals.

Regards,
George

Thank you very much for that Geo.
Yeah I have come to figure that out about the "Micro" before it. I am still green in PLC's but I have now used both and they are quite different it almost every way other than they are both small A-B controllers, and they appear to use the same serial cord (I programmed the 830 with USB)

According to the Micro830/850 User Manual (2080-UM002F-EN-E), on page 42, it does support CIP Symbolic addressing over RS232. In other words, if your HMI supports CIP over DF1, you can use the RS232 port and access global tags directly by name.

Hi,

>2080-UM002F-EN-E

That is a later version than I have so it might have been added in a firmware release.

Later:

Yep, it was added in later versions. Page 43, firmware revisions 1.70 and above.

Learn something new everyday.

CIP-in-DF1 - Fragmentation Protocol

Archie said:

According to the Micro830/850 User Manual (2080-UM002F-EN-E), on page 42, it does support CIP Symbolic addressing over RS232. In other words, if your HMI supports CIP over DF1, you can use the RS232 port and access global tags directly by name.

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Hi Archie,

I know you delve quite deeply into all this protocol "magic", so forgive me if I'm giving you a 101 here on stuff you already know. If not, I hope it's of interest...

That's often a big "if" with a lot of HMI manufacturers that do support AB protocols. Most commonly seen and provided is the original DF1 Standard, using PCCC protocol poll/response messaging packets. Well known in the PLC/SLC/MicroLogix/PV world, and beyond. This is the flavour most serve up.

The CIP protocol is of course another well known Standard, based on the object oriented model. It's designed more for the Logix controllers, using implicit connections. We mostly see it as EtherNet/IP these days.

CIP Serial, or CIP-in-DF1, however, is more an AB/RA extension of the PCCC Serial protocol, and not a written Standard as such. In order to carry CIP data over a DF1 Serial link, the CIP data is encapsulated inside PCCC messages. As the PCCC protocol has a 244 byte limitation, a sub PCCC fragmentation protocol must be used whenever CIP data breaches this limit. This CIP Serial protocol is used, for instance, when connecting older PCCC Serial based controllers to newer Logix based controllers, over DF1, again using fragmented CIP messages within PCCC packets. It can also be used for polling OPC data serially out of supported AB devices. It's pretty much an in-house implementation for specific data linking between AB devices, and not so widely implemented outside of AB land.

Even the 1761-NET-ENI does not support CIP encapsulated within DF1, just plain vanilla DF1 RS-232. Likewise, popular interfaces, such as the Digi One IAP, do not support CIP-in-DF1.

For the Micro800 family, the limited protocols available over the serial link are indicative of their apparent attempts to steer you toward using the intended HMI designed to go hand-in-hand with these controllers, namely the PanelView Component terminals, which of course, fully support CIP Serial, wouldn't you know?

Once you go to Ethernet on the Micro850, the world's your oyster, HMI wise, but for its serial siblings, it's a much narrower and hurdled field.

Regards,
George

Saying I could find this CIP via serial. I would then want to do what they show in here http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=92224 to access my local tags?

I know that is a different controller and its Ethernet but once the CIP compatibility is obtained the medium of transportation should not matter and the controller is in the same family.

That is the wrong thread I am looking for the correct one

http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=92205

This is the thread I meant to refer to it talks about getting the HMI to find the Local Tags

dlweber said:

Saying I could find this CIP via serial...

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Find it where? Available for the EZTouch?
I don't think it is, but I haven't looked, have you?

dlweber said:

...I know that is a different controller and its Ethernet but once the CIP compatibility is obtained the medium of transportation should not matter and the controller is in the same family.

Click to expand...

CIP-in-Ethernet, or EtherNet/IP, is using the CIP Standard in it's native format, as intended. This protocol driver will be supported on many to most HMIs that use Ethernet. There is a big difference, as I had hoped I had pointed out, between CIP-in-Ethernet, and CIP-in-DF1, which is a very proprietary serial protocol adaptation by Rockwell.

Your chosen HMI will either support CIP Serial (CIP-in-DF1), or it won't. My guess is it most likely won't. Saying it supports CIP over Ethernet, CIP-in-Ethernet, or EtherNet/IP, however they may phrase it, is not the same thing, is not compatible, and does not use the same transportation method at the OSI layer as the CIP Serial implementation.

In other words, CIP is not the same, when transported over a serial link, as it is when transported over an Ethernet link.

dlweber said:

...I would then want to do what they show in here...

Click to expand...

This is a bit deja vu here for me as I've posted quite similarly in the first link you gave above that was the wrong one!

As an example - if you add a PVc into an project in CCW, and under "Tags" for the PVc add a variable in the Tag Editor. Then click the "Address" ellipses and the "Variable Selector" window opens. The first tab is "User Global Variables...". Tags in there can be assigned to your PVc tags.

If you look to the second tab, you'll notice it says "Local Variables - N/A". "N/A" of course meaning "Not Applicable". You cannot directly reference Local Variables i.e. program tags in CCW for a PVc. Only Global Scoped Variables are directly exposed to the PVc, whether using CIP Serially, or over Ethernet. This is similar to shared data in Logix controllers needing to be Controller Scoped.

How you can indirectly access Local Variables depends on which protocol you are using...

CIP Serial or Ethernet...
You can create Local Scoped Variables and then set a Global Scoped Variable to be an Alias of that Local Scoped Variable. This way the Local Variables are indirectly exposed to the PVc.

Modbus...
If using Modbus from the HMI, you can map the registers directly to the Local Variables under "Modbus Mapping". While this still requires the mapping to be done, you at least do not have to map to Global Variables first, and then Alias to Local Variables.

Regards,
George

EZTouch has no compatibility with this controller (in actuality I wish we did not use EZTouch they are beginning to annoy me), I admitted that in a early post, however I may have other options floating around that I may be able to get my hands on.

dlweber said:

Saying I could find this CIP via serial. I would then want to do what they show in here omitted incorrect link to access my local tags?

I know that is a different controller and its Ethernet but once the CIP compatibility is obtained the medium of transportation should not matter and the controller is in the same family.

Click to expand...

I worded it poorly but

Geospark said:

CIP Serial or Ethernet...
You can create Local Scoped Variables and then set a Global Scoped Variable to be an Alias of that Local Scoped Variable. This way the Local Variables are indirectly exposed to the PVc.

[/QUOTE

Is the answer to what I was trying to ask. That method is described in the thread I was trying to link to (the second one I linked.) However in that thread the discussion was Ethernet, I just wanted to make sure the method was the same for serial, which you confirmed.

If I would have mastered my words better my assumption would have been right

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Geospark, if you are still following this thread Red Lion claims to be compatible with Allen Bradley Native Tag Addressing via Serial. in your experience have you seen this Micro830 to RL using serial tags setup to work?

If it does not work they still support MODBUS RTU and I can go that route.

I convinced my boss that the I/O on the 830 and panel face is to small to support the functionality he wants me to add. Red Lion is well priced, I like the one we have, and many people on this site speak well of them so I suggested we use them.

dlweber said:

Geospark, if you are still following this thread Red Lion claims to be compatible with Allen Bradley Native Tag Addressing via Serial. in your experience have you seen this Micro830 to RL using serial tags setup to work?...

Click to expand...

That driver is specific to the Logix controllers i.e. ControlLogix/CompactLogix, which are programmed using RSLogix 5000 or Logix Designer (Studio 5000).

While the Micro800 controllers use similar tag addressing, they are not Logix controllers. The tags are not stored in the same way as the Logix controllers, and so are not accessible in the manner designed to be used by this driver. The tags must reside at the Controller Scope of a Logix controller for this driver to work correctly. Global Scoped variables in a Micro800, while similar in use, are not the same as Controller Scoped tags in RSLogix 5000/Logix Designer.

Apart from the above restriction, for this driver you have to export the tag database in RSLogix 5000/Logix Designer, in L5K format, and then import the tags into Crimson. This creates a tag database in Crimson available for direct referencing to Logix based tags. You cannot export the tag variables in CCW in the same format as a Logix controller.

While Red Lion do provide a "DF1 Master via PCCC/EIP driver", this is only for Ethernet. They do not support CIP-in-Serial.

So Modbus may be your only option here.

Regards,
George

Thanks