Certified Automation Professional - Any Thoughts?

[iadapt]

I just visited the www.isa.org website and I am wondering if anyone here has an opinion regarding the value of such a certification and or if anyone has any experience with this group.

Thanks.

 

[iant]

Ask yourself what is the value of US$100 per year and where is it going to get you?

 

[iadapt]

So what is the educational qualifier for a programmer (if any) I worked with a recent Purdue University Graduate (majored in automation) who couldn't network the PC to the processor, he had never done it. This guy wasn't dumb he was in fact pretty sharp it's just that he hadn't been taught with a high level of hands on training.

Do most programmers learn from seminars? Does everyone search for a company that teach them (not likely to find one in today's job market, which is likely flooded with competent programmers out of work) Or is everyone self-taught (not a great selling point for an interview to say that you taught yourself) so to me on the surface a certification seems wise if not even necessary.

Any thoughts?

 

[iant]

is the certificate from a certified group or recognised training group.
this cert. appears to be given by paying an annual fee.
A Basic 6 month PLC course teaches you how to use the easy aspects of some PLC's.
AB offer advanced 4 day courses.
I agree with the need to show some form of Qualification, but few choice questions and a simple test question or sheet will soon tell you wether the person knows what they are talking about.
E.G.
simple question - for a logic understanding
Do You Play Chess?
How many moves does the White Player have available for their first move?

 

[iadapt]

Iant, I agree with the simplistic approach to using a few well thought out questions as a qualifier for hiring. However, if one were to take a survey of programmers regarding where they learned their craft I wonder what the answer would be?

It seems as though self-taught might be the largest result, if so what should be the answer for someone who might be a delivery man interested in becoming a programmer?

Learn on your own, go to college, take lots of seminars, wait until someone hires you and trains you? I got my job as an entry level programmer via my knowledge in industrial electricity. I learned that when being laid off from my middle management job in a manufacturing company I decided to sign up for an online electronics and computer class. The combination of 20 yrs in management and manufacturing and a friend helped me get the job to learn electricity.

So back to the premise whats the most common route for becoming a programmer what certifications are worth getting in any?

Any thoughts?

 

[Steve Bailey]

I haven't been on either side of the desk during a job interview in many years so I can't comment on whether job applicants are including it on their resumes nor whether HR people are asking about it. I can say that I've never seen it listed among the requirements for any job I've seen posted on any automation websites.

My opinion is that if you're being interviewed for a job and you have to explain what the letters mean to the person who's doing the hiring then the certification isn't widely enough recognized to be of much real value. On the other hand, drilling down into the details of what skills are covered in the certification should give you an idea of whether or not you should be promoting yourself as an automation professional.

Furthermore the scope of the automation field is huge. The skills you acquire as a controls or instrumentaion person in a refinery won't necessarily prepare you to take a job designing controls or programming for a machine tool OEM.

 

[iadapt]

Hey Steve,

I appreciate your point of view, you are right the vast breath of the Automation and Controls field is as I am discovering HUGE to say the least. Therefore the salary for such skills are across the board as well I would surmise.

My reasoning for trying to drill this question down is to plan my future within this enormous industry. Obviously it appears as though receiving a degree seems to be a prerequisite, (even if I will likely not learn anything of value) By the time I finish my 4 year degree (4-5+ yrs from now) I will have about 7 - 8 years in the industry and have traveled around the country with LOTS of experience.

Yet in the mean time I will likely only be earning in the neighborhood of less then $60K, while someone with much less experience will be able to earn $70K - $100K because they have a degree.

Therefore the curiosity regarding my future learning i.e. cert, degrees and training inquiry.

Any thoughts regarding the best way to position oneself with the proper training and certs/degrees for machine automation/control professionals?

 

[Steve Bailey]

Obviously it appears as though receiving a degree seems to be a prerequisite, (even if I will likely not learn anything of value)

The tools available for automation are constantly changing. There's no way an engineering school is going to be able to give you hands-on training on the newest hardware. The makers of the latest and greatest tools are selling them to the end users where the profit margins are bigger. The stuff they donate to schools to get tax deductions is likely to be one generation old. Furthermore by the time colleges can incorporate new hardware into the curriculum, it's no longer new.

What an engineering degree should provide is the analytical tools you can use to evaluate multiple possible strategies for a given task and make an informed choice about the best fit. The fundamentals of physics, chemistry, thermodynamics, electromagnetics et al don't change and they still apply to real world processes. Consequently, when you step into the workplace as a freshly minted engineer you'll have a wealth of "book learning" and not much experience in the practical application of all that theory. The practical application comes with experience and it's what increases your value to your employer over time.

Your education doesn't end the day you walk away from college with your engineering degree. Throughout your career you'll be going to seminars, training sessions, workshops etc as new hardware, software and techniques become available.

 

[iadapt]

I see, regarding seminars and future training. I will be transferring to Purdue University this Winter because as I review the job openings in this industry it appears as though a degree is required (to earn the highest income).

However I may participate some in the hiring of a new programmer for our company within the next year and if so I wont suggest we hire a new engineer from the very school I will be going to, unless like me they have some experience.

Moreover, I will likely suggest we get someone with experience over a degree (because a person with a degree will cost more but likely have less experience) funny how that works.

You can imagine my dichotomy, therefore my confusion. But Steve I really do appreciate your input. You are helping me decide how best to spend $60K+/- for my future education.

Thanks.

I am interested in any ones thoughts in this matter.

 

[Steve Bailey]

Moreover, I will likely suggest we get someone with experience over a degree (because a person with a degree will cost more but likely have less experience) funny how that works.

You don't actually have to choose betweeen a person with a degree and no experience and an experienced person without a degree do you? How about a person with a degree and experience?

The person with some experience but no degree may be able to hit the ground running, but the lack of a solid grasp of basic pricipals may render him less likely to be willing to take advantage of new technologies as they reach the market and more apt to stick with what he already knows.

A person just out of engineering school with no industry experience is more of a long-term investment. He may not know much about current practices, but should be able to understand or at least figure out why current practices work. By the time he has some experience under his belt, he has the potential to be able to balance the competing attitudes of "that's the way we've always done it" and "this is cutting edge technology".

The preceding two paragraphs are generalizations. There are exceptions. Some people with impeccable academic credentials can't program a start/stop circuit. Some self-taught people have an innate "feel" for the underlying principals even if they can't explain the theory behind them. RSDoran, a long-time member of this forum who died a few years ago was an example of the latter type. He could keep a production line running with chewing gum and baling twine and he never tired of tweaking the more erudite members whenever they got too full of themselves.

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

Don't mess with a $100 certificate. It won't be worth anything.

iadapt, Steve is right about the tools changing. That is why I would concentrate on 'forever knowledge' which is what I call physics and math. I see programming as a tool but the main goal should be understanding different processes and how to control them.

I worked with a recent Purdue University Graduate (majored in automation) who couldn't network the PC to the processor, he had never done it.

It should be as easy as reading the documentation. They didn't even teach these things when I went to college because they didn't exist yet.

This guy wasn't dumb he was in fact pretty sharp it's just that he hadn't been taught with a high level of hands on training.

Some people have 'the knack' and others don't.

Programming is an art. I believe one can teach the basics to some and they will do OK. Others have 'the knack' and with or without training they will excel. Somethings just take experience. Experience is something you can gain on your own with your own projects. That is how I learned to program. I could do some Fortran in college but I really learned on my own. If you do something your are proud of and can show off that is definitely worth much more than a $100 certificate. It show passion for what you do and the ability to learn on your own.

 

[a062549]

The person with some experience but no degree may be able to hit the ground running, but the lack of a solid grasp of basic pricipals may render him less likely to be willing to take advantage of new technologies as they reach the market and more apt to stick with what he already knows.

A person just out of engineering school with no industry experience is more of a long-term investment. He may not know much about current practices, but should be able to understand or at least figure out why current practices work. By the time he has some experience under his belt, he has the potential to be able to balance the competing attitudes of "that's the way we've always done it" and "this is cutting edge technology".

It's been my experience the newly graduated get some experience and leave after about two years.

The preceding two paragraphs are generalizations. There are exceptions. Some people with impeccable academic credentials can't program a start/stop circuit. Some self-taught people have an innate "feel" for the underlying principals even if they can't explain the theory behind them. RSDoran, a long-time member of this forum who died a few years ago was an example of the latter type. He could keep a production line running with chewing gum and baling twine and he never tired of tweaking the more erudite members whenever they got too full of themselves.

I have a friend (EE)in the chemical industry that can't actually change a program, he has to wait on the Chemical Engineer to OK it. Noting the accounting department is ALL chem e's.
Don't get me started on the job adds that say "MUST BE EE, Technology degrees are NOT acceptable." (No, I didn't even apply, wouldn't want to work there obviously.)
I, too, have worked with many self-taught people that should be called "Sir" when I address them.

 

[TCTBAPS]

I have just browsed around on the ISA website, and it seems that all of you just have looked at the membership section.
Yes it cost $100 per year to be a member of ISA, this will give you access to their standards online, possibility to buy some documents, a magazine, some discounts and some other things.
But as I see it you will not just get the certificate, you will have to prove yourself at an exam and have to document experience. http://www.isa.org/Content/Navigati..._Professional1/Requirements3/Requirements.htm This will cost you ($295, if you are a member of course)
This certificate will be valid for 3 years where you have to renew it in either documented work or a re-exam.

I don't know if it would get you ahead in an interview with such a certificate.
And to be honest i haven't heard about ISA before this morning.

If its worth something is really all about how many companies/people know about ISA.



http://www.isa.org/Content/Navigati..._Professional1/Requirements3/Requirements.htm

 

[iant]

Well said TCTBAPS
I highlighted the $100 per year - But did bother about the additional costs.
-
What you need to gain employement varies, as has been mentioned.
There are people on this site, myself included, that have years of experiance (36+) in automation. I am a Qualified electrician and have done many courses, Ask me about GE Fanuc - I have no Idea -
Ask some others about Siemens, AB or Omron PLC's, some of us old farts have the knowledge. It depends on what or where you are working, as to what you need. Until Recently I had no need to look at networking - Now I am commonly using it. I still do not need to look at Redundancey systems.
-
Look at the point of doing 4~5 Years of study to gain a certificate.
Good Idea
But 35 years ago that same course would have both been non-existing and now obsolete.
the only way to keep up your knowledge is to keep yourself informed...
Self Taught...

 

[BobB]

Here we go again! Ruddy pieces of paper. What ever happened to experience! I did apply for a few jobs some years ago but did not have a piece of paper but experience coming out of my ears. Started up a company and worked for myself - best thing I ever did - making more dough in the last 10 years than I have ever made in my life working for a boss. Will never go back - 69 this year. Have degrees in business and marketing management too - have run divisions of huge multi-nationals over the years - will never go back there either.