controlling presure with VFD

Wasteful. Everyone wants to say energy now.
Edmhydraulics has the right idea. Servo motors and gear pumps. Controlling pressure requires very little flow but a motor that can apply torque at low speeds.

Why a servo motor? Not questioning, just curious.
Is it that servo motors (which are 3 phase ac motors with sophisticated vfd "servo drive" correct) offer that much more precise control? Is it the reaction speeds?
 
Why a servo motor? Not questioning, just curious.
Is it that servo motors (which are 3 phase ac motors with sophisticated vfd "servo drive" correct)

A typical AC induction motor has slip, a servo motor has no slip because it has a permanent magnet rotor.

offer that much more precise control? Is it the reaction speeds?

Yes and Yes
 
Walking before I run here...since I already have a couple of gear pump motor combos lying around.

CAN a servo drive be used with an induction motor.
 
Walking before I run here...since I already have a couple of gear pump motor combos lying around.

CAN a servo drive be used with an induction motor.

Do any of your induction motors have encoder feedback? All of the servo motors I have worked with have an encoder. With the lack of precision that an induction motor brings to the table, I'm thinking a servo controller would not be compatible with an induction motor.
 
Originally posted by dougpdf:

CAN a servo drive be used with an induction motor.

What is and is not considered a "servodrive" these days is a very blurred line. For example, the Bosch/Rexroth Indradrive as well as the the Control Techniques Unidrive SP and the Parker/SSD 890 (among others) can all control induction and PM motors both with and without feedback. So are those servodrives or just run-of-the-mill VFDs?

What most people will consider a servodrive these days is a drive that can control a PM motor, accept high resolution feedback and has sub-millisecond velocity loop closure rates. Basically a high performance drive.

The thing that most users get wrong when trying to use induction motors in high bandwidth applications is they come up short on the feedback. Your "industry standard" 1024 PPR encoder isn't going to cut it for high bandwidth applications. Indramat used to market a "servo induction" motor. It was a 3-phase induction motor but was long and thin for it's horsepower, like a PM servo would be. But is also came with a high resolution feedback device that would produce in excess of 2 million counts per revolution. Worked pretty slick. They were often used for rotary knife applications.

As with most applications like this it comes down to torque to inertia ratio. Can you throw the motor and load around quickly enough to keep up with the process with the torque available from the motor/amplifier pair. If your analysis shows you can do that with an induction motor then an induction motor will work.

The same idea extends to the "plc vs motion controller" argument. A motion controller will provide higher performance in motion applications because it is specifically designed in both hardware and software to perform motion functions. This include the command set but also extends to I/O update rate and I/O update to loop closure synchronization. A plc will not provide those things typically, which has a direct effect on its available control bandwidth. Not to say a plc can't perform a specific motion function. But the user needs to carefully analyze and understand the required control bandwidth and then determine if the selected plc is up to the task.

So the moral of the story is that a motion controller driving a properly sized, matched PM motor/drive combination will provide much greater margin for error in any application that could use either that or a plc/induction motor combination. If you don't know for sure which way to go I would recommend buying the insurance that a motion controller/PM motor combination will buy you. I'm just saying that simply repeating the mantra that "it moves and positions so it has to use a motion controller and "servodrive"" (whatever THAT is) doesn't have a whole lot of value either.

In this particular case, I would guess the non-linearity at lower speeds caused by the vane pump will make this a real challenge to control regardless of platform. I'm thinking some loss modelling and feed forward would help along with some gain profiling to help model the apparent change in flow gain with speed as the vanes seal to the pump body. Or just switch to a gear pump and call it even.

Keith
 
Thank you Keith for that detailed response. Most of the "servo drive" PM/gear pump combos I've seen do not use encoder feedback. I really don't see how they would work anyway since they're pumping fluid and not running a mechanical actuator such as a rack or ball screw drive, like an fully electric molding machine does.
It's already a given that I need a new drive since mine are well past they're prime. The drives I have in mind are designed with hydraulic pumps in mind and will have pressure and flow feedback inputs and easy setup. I think I'll give one a try along with a good internal gear pump.
I'll be losing reaction time, but my particular injection process (thermosets) does EVERYTHING slow.
I want to thank everyone that has posted for all the information. Each day I learn something new.
 
Originally posted by dougpdf:

I really don't see how they would work anyway since they're pumping fluid and not running a mechanical actuator such as a rack or ball screw drive, like an fully electric molding machine does.

People often think of encoders as position reporting devices, which they are. However, just as importantly in our case, the derivative of position is velocity. You want the encoder so that the motors can be controlled to the velocity you tell it to go. While there are some good sensorless control techniques out there, if you will be running down to zero speed you will need an encoder. Higher resolution encoders provide smoother speed feedback as there is finer position change information per difference period for velocity calculation.

Keith
 

Similar Topics

Afternoon all, I'm working on setting up a large excel recipe table for porting updates through the Linx Gateway RTD/DDE function into my recipe...
Replies
2
Views
141
Compactlogix controller, program has 28 conveyors that use TON's to start the conveyors. The TT sounds a warning horn during start and the DN...
Replies
10
Views
588
I'm a Manufacturing Engineer with limited PLC experience and I am doing some research for our Controls Department. Does anyone have experience...
Replies
4
Views
216
Good Evening , I should know more about Solid State Relays . I have a system with 8) 120 vac Vibrators . These Solid State Relays have...
Replies
24
Views
2,202
Hi All, I am facing one issue with the SEW MDX61B drive. Issue- I want to run a conveyor with this drive in two directions but it runs in...
Replies
0
Views
360
Back
Top Bottom