technical testing

[BobB]

The last job I had with a large company had an interesting policy. The techos were hired by HR!!!!!!

An accountant to service a machine?????

Well not quite, but pretty close.

HR = Hopeless Recruiters.!!!!!

 

[The_Wanderer]

In my (somewhat limited) experience as an interviewer, I tried to keep it more like a casual conversation. The other 2 interviewers were directors, and asked all the standard questions about schooling, plans for the future, 3 good/bad aspects of himself. I would pop in a question like "... and where in the city are you living at the moment?"
The reaction I got to a change of angle and the way the questions were answered gave me that gut feeling that I based my decisions on. I was not really worried about the actual answer, but more about the reaction to a change of pace and the quality of the answer. The guy who just named the suburb and then grunted did not score as well as the guy who gave a desciption of the house as well. The feelings I got in the first few minutes tended to agree with the directors after they had gone through all the boring stuff and then debated for hours, and experience proved me right over time.
I would not be a fan of tests, as some people can test well, but not perform well in the real world. Others can choke if they are put on the spot.

Just my spin on things...

 

[Leadfoot]

My company has a test that was written and re-written over the years. It is an electricity and electronics test. There are also 7 areas of speciality that the testee can answer any 5 of them. An example is knowledge of how motors work. Not everybody has all the skills. It is purely a test based on training and experience. By allowing the candidate to choose 5 skills areas, we can learn their strengths and their weak points.

I get to help select those that will be asked in to take the test. It is amazing how the perfect candidate on paper cannot answer simple questions on how basic circuitry functions. It definately cuts to the chase. The last time it was re-written, it was passed to several long time abd senior employees for review to make sure the questions pertained to the work we do and there was a correct answer on the multiple guess questions.

When we hire some one after this test, we know exactly what their skills are and what skills they need to be trained with.
Schedule time with each person that should be part of the hiring process and find out what specific skills are desired. Then build test questions around these areas. You also need to consider some folks just do not do written tests well.

BTW, scores over 50% is doing ok, over 60% definately gets them a call to come for an interview.

 

[davidg68124]

when hiring people for the position of 'electrician' in a company I used to work for, I had a simple diagram that I asked them to wire. The correct answer is against the NEC, but that wasn't what I wanted. I wanted to test their grasp of theory.

you aren't kidding about being against NEC. They would not like this at all.

Testing is sometimes not a good indicator. I was asked to review a test for the firm I am on contract with a few months back. My background is electronics and Computer Science/Mathematics, so I think I am quite literate. The test they showed me was taken from a training course they have in house. It is written directly to the text and has little bearing on what they need to know. Basically it was a test of memory. But they were giving this to interviewees as well. They think there is no talent available here. I could see why. Heck, I even had trouble with it. But since that time, the testing is better but has along way to go.

In my opinion, for multi discipline type techs, you need someone able to troubleshoot. How to test for that is different than what most companies are testing. A troubleshooter can be taught the skills needed for things, but that common sense has to reside for them to be good.

I would venture to say the better people here are probably troubleshooters....

David

 

[Steve Etter]

I find that just a bit of a written test can be valuable as a tool used during a face-to-face technical interview. Clearly (in my mind, anyway), this interview has to be done by folks who acutally understand the concepts being discussed and tested. Things like identifying common schematic diagram components and drawing a latching circuit come to mind. As others have said, the answer itself is usually not as important as the thought process the candidate uses to reach one.

That said, I do not favor tests typically administered by the HR types. I have yet to find a test like this that offers much insight into a candidate. A desk-jockey kinda guy with no field experience can often pass a test, but turn out not to be the guy you want in an emergency. On the other hand, some of the best on-site guys are ones who never really had formal book training and tend to bomb written tests.

What I do favor, though, is a careful review of the resume followed by a short technical phone interview where a similarly techincal type discusses a few select topics. Based on this person's impression, set up a formal interview or not. So far, I have found this technique tends to work pretty well.

My 2-1/2 pesos

Steve

 

[LStewart]

So what do you do when you get someone who has the right answers and seems to have the skills necessary to do the job, but once hired, is a person who has no initiative and has to be directed constantly? How do you weed out those folks? Our maintenance dept has what is called a "pay for skills" program. They are making everyone in maintenance take courses at a local college, time and travel at company expense. The courses are like basic plc., residential wiring, hydraulics, welding, etc... just all over the board. For every level they complete they are raised a catagory in their job classification. They have 3 years to complete everything or they lose their jobs. Unfortunately none of the classes are credited courses, and only a few actually pertain to the work we need to do at our plant.

 

[darrenj]

When i went to trade school i hung around with a guy..he was super itllegent..knew all the answers..damn he could make the paper stand on its end..ask him to draw you anything and he could..ask him to wire a 3 way switch 3 different ways and he was lost...Testing is all about memory..
There was a post here about a numbers game..(cant remember the name of the game)..This to me would be more of a relevant test than most..

The last couple of interviews i have done have been very relaxed and low key..(In case people don't know i am a sparky who does controls i would say about 40% of the time)..I told the guy to meet me a small Diner in our are at 6.30am..(First of this means the guy doesn't have miss work for an interview, and second thats what time we start..it tells me he can get up at that time..it also tells me what he look like at that time..Red eyed..sweaty..booze breath..not a chance..!) while we sat for coffee we start of light..and not PC..are you married, where do you live..got kids..Not that this has any bearing on the job..just trying to get the guy to relax..after a few Min's of preliminaries i start by telling him about the company..what we do, what we expect,hours,pay and bonus..I then ask him what he expects...You can get a lot from that question..then i ask out of the blue..what size wire and pipe do i need for an overhead 100amp service? then its on to safety..any training? what other qualifications does he have..then throw in a question like..how much does a 30 hp 3 phase motor draw at 600v?..Now maybe people from the US wouldn't get this one but for anyone who works with 600v its easy..its an amp a HP roughly..so a 30 HP motor runs at 30amps..If the guy tells me he does a lot of PLC work and drives..i usually ask how do you size, and do you place the overloads on the line side or load side of a (Insert favorite brand here) Frequency drive running a xxxHP motor?..

In my area trying to find someone who does controls and PLC is like pulling teeth..we are a government town not industrial..on the phone i ask them about PLC's and i get the standard answer of oh yea i have done lots of work with them..During our "chat" i ask what brands..what software, what did you do with them..out of 20 i would say 18 admitted that they installed the pipe and pulled the wire to the cabinet..1 knew the answer, but admitted he never worked in the field on them only in school..the other tried to bullshit his way thru..by giving me.."oh i cant remember i did so many different ones i can remember the name of the software i used.."..out of the last 20 3 are working for me..2 who admitted to me they lied just to get an interview..and the one who admitted he only used the software in school..out of the 3..1 is on "death Row" at the moment..(Good guy..excellent worker..presentable..easy to get along with and works well with others..) he is a little unrealable..there is always a "reason" why hes 5 Min's late..or sick... The other 2..possibly 2 of the best i have hired in the last couple of years..

WOW i didn't realize i rambled this long..To be brief..just because someone Bombs a written test doesn't mean they are not smart..Just because someone has a PHD..that doesn't make them smart either

Someone brought up an interesting point here tho..electritians do make good mechanics..but mechanics do not make good electritians..Is that in the training? or just the personality..Or is it because to do our job we have to understand the mechanics of something to make it work properly??

D

 

[Terry Woods]

Steve...

S&M (Smoke & Mirrors, on the PLC Thread) has eliminated the position of HR for the very reason that you indicated... HR is clueless! HR is a Non-Positive Filter! That is, HR does not satisfactorily discern those that have potential. There are plenty of guys that have the moxie despite not having the "paper"!

Ron...

If a guy hasn't got the mental ability to draw a 3-D cube then he has a serious spacial-relationship deficiency. This is a critical talent in any mechanical endevour.

If he can, then he clearly doesn't have that deficiency.

If, after drawing the 3-D cube, that guy also has the ability to draw a 4-D cube, then that guy has a good, basic, understanding of motion through time... this is fundamental to serious automation control!

If he can draw it then you KNOW he has it... if he can't... then you don't know.

Ron... are you take the Psychology series? I highly recommend it! It is incredibly enlightening!

If not... then I think I'm gonna have to talk to the purse-string holders and cut-off your tuition!

Damn it, Ron, I knew this was gonna happen! Pretty soon you will be arguing all of the points that I have argued in the past... damn! Two guys like me? I shudder to think!

 

[CroCop]

I hate HR. The current catz we have doing HR simply oursource the bulk of our hiring to a local temp agency & let them do the screening.

What was the point of HR again?

 

[S7Guy]

I've interviewed for three controls engineer jobs in my life, and none of them included a test. Typically, I started with an engineering manager, we we just talked in general. If I passed that "test", some of the real engineers came in and talked to me, just to see if I had some practical knowledge. If I didn't know something, I just said "I don't know". I think BS'ing people is the worst thing you can do in an interview (I know, because I've been on the other end, and I've heard some real BS).

I interviewed for one maintenance position when I was starting out, but there wasn't a test there either, but I had already done some work there as a practicum student so they knew me a little bit. Now I think the trend is to hire guys through a temp agency with the idea that "They only need someone for a couple of months", and then if they are total losers, you let them go. But if someone shows some smarts and good work ethics, they are snatched right up full-time. You really can't go wrong that way.

 

[Fred Raud]

just cause someone is good at testing,,doesnt make them lacking common sense,,the place i used to work implemented testing for pay raises,,the tests were part written,,but mostly hands on dealing with specific equipment of the plant,,and the ole timers resented that they had to take a test period,,especially the written part,,i know that some were illeterate,,and most just got confused by it,,and they would sit around in the shop talking about how guys that could pass tests like that were going to be useless on the job cause they spent too much time in school and would have no common sense at all,,

well,,i got that job because i was good at taking tests,,i did have some mechanical and electrical background,, and was a good student in highschool as well as a little college and am quite the avid reader,,the test was a mechanical aptitude test,,and was easy for me,,but when i got hired and had no experience in industrial maintenance i was their prime example on those that did well on testing being of no use,,granted my first few months there was a little rough while i got used to the specifics of the field,,but it wasnt long til i had the hang of it and could hold my own troubleshooting with the ole timers there,,the only thing they had on me then was their specific knowledge of their equipment,,

so now here i am 7 years later still enjoying industrial maintenance,,still good at tests,,and still have common sense to make me a good troubleshooter/problem solver,,i really think that the guys in this thread who stressed on sitting down with the prospective employee and letting your intuition guide you have something going there,,use the testing to see what areas you have to work with the guy on

Fred Raud

 

[brucechase]

I just thought I would add some of my stuff I've been involved in.

Ron, I worked for DuPont for a while and even went on interviews with them. For the most part, there was no tests when I was there (late 80's). They assumed that most of the new people had no skills and immediately sent them off to class. I remember the 1st guys would spend 6 weeks in classes learning about everything. Some washed out some didn't. When done, there were E&I phase I. They then worked for at least 1 year (mostly 3 years) with a phase II person. After that, they went to phase II training which was about 8 weeks. I'm not sure if all the DuPont plants did this or not. I was just at one site. I learned a tremendous amount working for DuPont, their safety training is second to none.

Darrenj, I don't know what it is like in Canada, but asking those questions would get a person fired here. It is against the law to ask about family or where you live - not relevant to the job, ice breaker or not. They can initiate the conversation but the interviewer cannot. I spent countless hours being trained on what can be asked and what cannot. Lawyers !!!

At my current employer, I've helped write and rewrite some of these same questions. One thing that kind of disappointed me was that only one person (Darrenj) mentioned anything about safety. If I was going to hire a person who I expected to hit the ground running, I would like to know about their safety training and attitude. One of the questions we currently ask is what kind of instrument would you use to measure the voltage on a 2400 VAC starter. The reason for that one is early on we had a very well qualified electrician troubleshooting a 2400 starter and wanted to see if the fuses were blown. Yep, he put his Fluke 87 on VAC and tried to measure the voltage across the fuse. He spent 4 months in a hospital and is scarred for life. The interesting thing about that is he said he never has worked on anything above 480 VAC, we should have caught that. OSHA fined us and we relooked at our testing.

By the way, one interesting thing out of that was all of our Flukes when put on the voltage scale had 4000 as the maximum (not 1000). Fluke responded very rudely when asked but it boiled down to them saving a few dollars per meter since the ranges went 40 -400 - 4000 (just adding a zero). There response was to read the warning before use.
Even though I'm not a big fan of tests, it can show some things. Basic knowledge is nice, but some of the details probably aren't that necessary. I'm sure that everyone here had to learn at least something after they got on the job. No one is born with the ability to program a plc or set up a motor starter circuit. Look for someone with a good attitude that is trainable. Just be prepared for them to go through a learning curve. We have about 75 questions and they range from simple starter circuit to what will this do to what is a zener diode to mane common industrial voltages. Our HR is very involved which protects the company and each of us. Getting them all right or all wrong isn't the only qualifier. We've had some that got less than 50% and they turned out to be the best techinicians I've worked with. We've also had some get 95% and I couldn't wait until they found a new job.

It all boils down to the fact that there is no one predictor on how well a person will perform a job or learn how to do something. Good luck and I hope you find someone who is top notch.

 

[geniusintraining]

Our typical questions for the interviewee

Open a print and point to a device and ask, "do you know what that is? And what it does?" we aren’t looking for the correct answer but one that makes sense if they say "no but I think... and they are headed in the right direction then they passed that part, if they have no idea and don’t want to try then we don’t need them

Take them out on the floor open a cabinet and ask them to describe what they see, you will know right a way if they are full of $hit



Next ask "Do you like seeing my face more then anyone else in your life?" if you get the job you will

We tried the "test" thing had one guy that did great but during the interview I asked do you have a problem using wrenches? (some electricians do), he said no but with the chronic nerve damage in his hands he was not able to use them...nice guy but I don’t think he was the one for the job, the test would not of shown that.

 

[zmanvortex]

I always choke on test because for some reason I find several ways to get the result the question asked.

There are so many things that are expected to be assumed that the question doesn't specify.

I never assume anything so my answers usually would "technically" give the correct result but are still considered wrong answers.

 

[patriot]

Written tests are mostly for show. All a guy has to do is break out his old text books from school, cram for a few hours and when he goes in to take the test, he looks like a genius because he scores really well. How do I know this? Because i've done it.

A far more important test when it comes to determining ability is a "practical" test. This involves setting up an area where a job candidate has to actually wire up something, rebuild something, program something, etc. etc. One food manufacturer I went to work for had me go in a room, wire up a circuit with a limit switch, e-stop, start and stop button and a couple of lights. Nothing extravagant, but you do have a reasonable time limit. They also had me rebuild a cylinder and do a few more simple tasks. Believe it or not, I felt that was the best test I ever had for a maintenance job. Every single guy at that place was capable in his job. Because unless you passed the "practical test", it didn't matter how well you scored on the written test.