HVAC drives

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May 2010
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London
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689
I have never found the answer to this - google is no help but........

What is the difference between an HVAC drive/inverter and a normal inverter?

I recently set one up for a customer for a 22KW motor. (it was second hand and bought by them from ebay)

The motor was for a centrifugal hydro that needed a long ramp up - over a minute from stationary to 48HZ. It then runs at 48HZ for about 12 minutes.

I set it up without any trouble and it has been running perfectly for 2 months. No overheating, no overcurrent - no problems at all

But the HVAC on the front cover worried me. I don't know what the difference is between a 22KW drive and a HVAC 22KW drive.
 
Generally the only difference I know of is some of the "smart" features they build in... we use a lot of Altivar Process drives (for pumping) and they have a whole range of features for low flow detection, dead head detection, running off curve etc.

The actual power electronics are the same so it will work for any standard application where you're just spinning a motor that doesn't need constant torque or full torque at low speed etc.
 
That makes sense. It did have a lot of features and parameters that I didn't need to use.
So I would guess, they are also more expensive than the equivalent KW drive.
 
Generally the only difference I know of is some of the "smart" features they build in... we use a lot of Altivar Process drives (for pumping) and they have a whole range of features for low flow detection, dead head detection, running off curve etc.

The actual power electronics are the same so it will work for any standard application where you're just spinning a motor that doesn't need constant torque or full torque at low speed etc.


I 2nd that. From what I've seen, the HVAC drives and Altivar drives (water pumping), typically have features that are commonly used in that type of application. Other than that, the seem like your typical VFD power circuitry.
 
That makes sense. It did have a lot of features and parameters that I didn't need to use.
So I would guess, they are also more expensive than the equivalent KW drive.

From what I have seen (schneider) is the HVAC drives are cheaper than normal 3 phase drives
 
From what I have seen (schneider) is the HVAC drives are cheaper than normal 3 phase drives

Yes- I've noticed that some of the ABB HVAC drives were cheaper as well. I think instead of having the ability to do numerous types of duty, they are tailored more to one or two.
 
Just to make it clear. HVAC application are not constant torque. So these drives can be used for constant torque applications (like conveyors etc) but you will have to size the drive one or more sizes bigger than the motor to run the load successfully. Otherwise you will get constant drive faults. Whether the power electronics are rated the same i dont know. But you will definitely not be able to run a constant torque application successfully if the HVAC drive rating is the same as the motor rating. Unless maybe if the motor is oversized
 
In general all the guts are the same. The pricing is lower in order to compete in a tough market. The intended applications are all variable torque, such as centrifugal pumps and fans. As indicated above you can use them for constant torque, at your own risk, by appropriately de-rating them.

For most manufacturers the only difference is the labeling changes and some of the software functions, such as PID, are crippled. They are there in the drive, but not accessible from the keypad or comm links.

My experience was that you could get close to the HVAC pricing for a standard VFD if you had a good relationship with the drive manufacturer, had a decent purchasing volume, and twisted their arm with a smile on your face.
 
I second the experience that HVAC drives are smaller for the same kW size.

I once mistakingly ordered a Siemens MicroMaster 430 (for HVAC) when it should have been a MicroMaster 440.
When I found out of my mistake, my 2 problems were that the 440 could not be fitted in the place of the 430 due to the size difference, and the 430 had no integrated brake chopper. I fitted an external brake chopper, and it worked out OK in the end, and I had learnt a bit about VFDs in the proces.
 
In my case, it is a HVAC 22KW drive controlling a 22KW motor.
It has a long ramp up but once it is at about half speed the current drops away and at full speed drops off to much less than the motor rated amps.
So I suppose it's not constant torque.

But thanks for all the info..... I now know the difference.
 
I'll expand a little on what was already said. First, some background rules relating to what goes on inside of a VFD:
1) torque = current
2) current = heat
3) heat is mostly the result of switching losses in the transistors
4) the longer a transistor is in the circuit, the more switching losses it experiences
5) the lower the output frequency, the longer each transistor stays in the circuit.

So with that background, let's explore the nature of loads on a motor. Loads can mostly be divided into two main categories; Constant Torque (CT) and Variable Torque(VT). To make this easier, I'll only describe VT in detail, because everything else is CT. But briefly, because CT means torque remains the same as speed changes, current remains the same as speed changes (rules 1&2 above). That then means that with a CT load run at low speeds, the transistors will experience MORE heat than at full speed, because the losses are greater. Keep that in mind.

A VT load is different in that by definition, it comes about only in centrifugal machines (aka "quadratic power" to much of the rest of the world). These are almost always centrifugal pumps and centrifugal fans*. As a side note, this brings out the marketing folks, who use various euphemisms for this, because technical terms like centrifugal or quadratic mean little to non-technical people. Hence the term "HVAC drive" because 99% of drives used in HVAC will be for centrifugal pumps or fans. Others call them VT drives, pump drives, etc., and in the case of Rockwell, "Normal Duty" because statistically, over 70% of ALL AC induction motors are used on centrifugal loads, hence, "Normal".

What's different about the loads, and the reason the drives are different, is the nature of the load on the motor being "variable" with speed, following what's called the "Afinity Law of speed change" which dictates that as the speed changes on a centrifugal machine, the load expressed on the motor driving it changes at the cube of the speed change. So if a pump is run at 1/2 speed, the load required by the motor drops to 1/8th of what it was at full speed (.5 cubed = .125 = 1/8).

So now, apply this to the rules stated earlier. at 1/2 speed on a CT load, the transistors will get HOTTER, but at 1/2 speed on a VT load, the transistor will run COOLER because even though they are on longer, the current is 1/8th of what the transistor was sized for.

So now fold this into someone designing a drive. If its a CT drive, you have to design for the worst case scenario; full torque (current) at low frequency. You ALSO must design it to be capable of delivering the maximum torque from the motor, called "Break Down Torque"(BDT), because that is what the motor utilizes to accelerate the load, and more importantly, RE-accelerate a motor after a step change in load. BDT is actually higher than Locked Rotor Torque, it's about 200% of Full Load Torque, therefore the motor will want 200% current (rules 1&2 again). The motor can only take this briefly, but that's usually taken into account by the mechanical engineer, so the VFD only needs to deliver it briefly if necessary. In addition, most motors are capable of being run at lower levels of overload for slightly longer periods. But still, that means the VFD designer must account for all of that, and is called the "overload capacity" of the drive. It's based on the thermal charging capacity of the transistors at the rate they can dissipate into the heat sinks, assuming they were already at full capacity when this started, hence, larger transistors. So a CT rated drive will be capable of 150% overload for 60 seconds, 200+% for 2-3 seconds. That way it can basically do whatever the motor can do.

But if the VFD is going o be used on a VT load, there is no chance the load will EVER require BDT from the motor, it's something that can only happen if there is a problem, in which case you WANT to shut it down. It cannot even overload briefly (if selected for the pump or fan curve) because load = flow, unless, like in a pump, the pipe breaks and it goes "open channel flow", in which case again, you will WANT the drive to shut it down. So in a VT drive, the transistors can be a lot smaller, usually at least one size smaller, and still run the same motor size at full speed. Bottom line, the drive is cheaper. But you sacrifice the overload capacity of that drive. A VT drive will only be rated for 105-110% overload for 30 seconds (not 60), 150% for 2-3seconds. So it will NEVER be capable of delivering BDT if used on a CT load.

So using an HVAC rated drive on a conveyor may work if everything is perfect and never changes. But if anything ever does change, even though the motor could handle it, the drive will have to protect itself and shut down, whether you want it to or not. So weigh the cost of lost production against any perceived savings in hardware.

Class dismissed...

* Not all pumps or fans are centrifugal, always check.
 
Last edited:
Perhaps it's BACnet compatible and will communicate with building automation systems with ease, ie designed specifically for HVAC components, but probably just as good as anything else within it's rated limits.
 
I'll expand a little on what was already said. First, some background rules relating to what goes on inside of a VFD:
1) torque = current
2) current = heat
3) heat is mostly the result of switching losses in the transistors
4) the longer a transistor is in the circuit, the more switching losses it experiences
5) the lower the output frequency, the longer each transistor stays in the circuit.

So with that background, let's explore the nature of loads on a motor. Loads can mostly be divided into two main categories; Constant Torque (CT) and Variable Torque(VT). To make this easier, I'll only describe VT in detail, because everything else is CT. But briefly, because CT means torque remains the same as speed changes, current remains the same as speed changes (rules 1&2 above). That then means that with a CT load run at low speeds, the transistors will experience MORE heat than at full speed, because the losses are greater. Keep that in mind.

A VT load is different in that by definition, it comes about only in centrifugal machines (aka "quadratic power" to much of the rest of the world). These are almost always centrifugal pumps and centrifugal fans*. As a side note, this brings out the marketing folks, who use various euphemisms for this, because technical terms like centrifugal or quadratic mean little to non-technical people. Hence the term "HVAC drive" because 99% of drives used in HVAC will be for centrifugal pumps or fans. Others call them VT drives, pump drives, etc., and in the case of Rockwell, "Normal Duty" because statistically, over 70% of ALL AC induction motors are used on centrifugal loads, hence, "Normal".

What's different about the loads, and the reason the drives are different, is the nature of the load on the motor being "variable" with speed, following what's called the "Afinity Law of speed change" which dictates that as the speed changes on a centrifugal machine, the load expressed on the motor driving it changes at the cube of the speed change. So if a pump is run at 1/2 speed, the load required by the motor drops to 1/8th of what it was at full speed (.5 cubed = .125 = 1/8).

So now, apply this to the rules stated earlier. at 1/2 speed on a CT load, the transistors will get HOTTER, but at 1/2 speed on a VT load, the transistor will run COOLER because even though they are on longer, the current is 1/8th of what the transistor was sized for.

So now fold this into someone designing a drive. If its a CT drive, you have to design for the worst case scenario; full torque (current) at low frequency. You ALSO must design it to be capable of delivering the maximum torque from the motor, called "Break Down Torque"(BDT), because that is what the motor utilizes to accelerate the load, and more importantly, RE-accelerate a motor after a step change in load. BDT is actually higher than Locked Rotor Torque, it's about 200% of Full Load Torque, therefore the motor will want 200% current (rules 1&2 again). The motor can only take this briefly, but that's usually taken into account by the mechanical engineer, so the VFD only needs to deliver it briefly if necessary. In addition, most motors are capable of being run at lower levels of overload for slightly longer periods. But still, that means the VFD designer must account for all of that, and is called the "overload capacity" of the drive. It's based on the thermal charging capacity of the transistors at the rate they can dissipate into the heat sinks, assuming they were already at full capacity when this started, hence, larger transistors. So a CT rated drive will be capable of 150% overload for 60 seconds, 200+% for 2-3 seconds. That way it can basically do whatever the motor can do.

But if the VFD is going o be used on a VT load, there is no chance the load will EVER require BDT from the motor, it's something that can only happen if there is a problem, in which case you WANT to shut it down. It cannot even overload briefly (if selected for the pump or fan curve) because load = flow, unless, like in a pump, the pipe breaks and it goes "open channel flow", in which case again, you will WANT the drive to shut it down. So in a VT drive, the transistors can be a lot smaller, usually at least one size smaller, and still run the same motor size at full speed. Bottom line, the drive is cheaper. But you sacrifice the overload capacity of that drive. A VT drive will only be rated for 105-110% overload for 30 seconds (not 60), 150% for 2-3seconds. So it will NEVER be capable of delivering BDT if used on a CT load.

So using an HVAC rated drive on a conveyor may work if everything is perfect and never changes. But if anything ever does change, even though the motor could handle it, the drive will have to protect itself and shut down, whether you want it to or not. So weigh the cost of lost production against any perceived savings in hardware.

Class dismissed...

* Not all pumps or fans are centrifugal, always check.

That settles it then :ROFLMAO:
 
The other major differences between VT (Normal Duty) and CT (Heavy Duty) drives is that the software will usually offer completely different MACROs to get you close to your intended use. For example, you would not likely find a Torque Regulator MACRO in an HVAC or VT rated drive but would almost always find it in an Industrial or CT drive. Secondly, the communication languages offered will be different, BACNET and Siemens N2 for HVAC and Profibus and Modbus Plus for Industrial.
 
The HVAC drives tend to have building networks communication options- BACnet and Lonworks...

Also, with variable torque HVAC applications, there are more 'lower priced' VFD options available. These may not include the bells and whistles of VFD functions.
Example: some lower priced HVAC VFD options may not include a braking transistor circuit. So, there isn't an option to tie a braking resistor to the DC bus directly.
_________________________________________
http://www.drivesandsystems.com
 

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