Can body maker / wall ironer trimmer

Can body maker questions
Has anyone programmed Omni controller S3000 from System Electronics Assocation.

found mainly in can body making machine.

we have Resolver from autotech, PLS from autotech model 1450 and omni controller from system Electronic association.

we need to replace them with a high speed input card - SLC based.

I have the software code written in Omni controller S 3000 but most of the program is written in High level language and some in ladder logic.

i could not find any manual to explain its instruction set

also we donot have SYS96 software which is used to program the omni controller.

the operation is like this.

the purpouse of Omni controller is basically read signal from resolver and switch on output at various degrees.

In existing system. omni controller does this job and AB PLC does the job of other interlock and operation.

Now we are trying to do it in AB PLC itself.

I think people working in can industry will know much about this.

on why can machine manufacturer use omni or autotech than PLC based system.

Can u please let me know about this. i have more questions to ask once i get some response.

thanking you all

Phaitoon

Can-Making is an Artform

Right outside the window of my shop are 10 Standun Bodymakers and 2 Standun Cuppers, so I may be able to help you a little with the process, but not the Omni Controller.

We use the Autotech 1250 which may or may not be very close to your 1450.

The purpose of the Autotech PLS (Programmable Limit Switch) is to open "windows" for sampling of the process, i.e. Short Can, Die Jam, No Can, Backstop, Air Strip High/Low ...

I do not know, but the Omni Controller may be for the Clutch/Brake control. We use an Allen-Bradely PLC for that and TI 545s for the rest of the process.

If you want to monitor for the above stated faults, send those signals to your AB PLC and write the ladder, but I suggest, until you know what the Omni Controller is doing with them, do not mess with it.

If you could give more detail about what you needs are, I may be able to help.
If you would register, that would also show that you are serious about what you are doing. I am only a beginner, but I read and learn from this site everyday and I think I owe it to those helping me, to know something about me. :site:

CAN making

Thanks Ilikbeer for your reply

we have Ragsdale Body maker from Alcoa Packaging machinery operation division.
we have 14 body maker and 2 cupper from minister

7 nos of body maker is of below type
Resolver - autotech - Omni controller - PLC5

Resolver-autotech-omnicontroller - provides short can, airstrip, backstop and reset timing signals. which are fed into AB 1771-IT (Fast input card) . also domer jam, short can sensor from sencon are wired into Omni controller and outputs of that are fed into AB 1771-IT card.

In other body makers which are old we have resolver, autotech and logic cards. the output of logic card which are same short can, reset signal, backstop and airstip window are wired to AB 1771-IT card.

Can u please let me know which AB card u are using in AB PLC to interface signal from Autotech 1250.

What does your AB PLC basically do and what does your TI plc DO.

can u please let me know this.

many thanks.

Ragsdales!?!

Are you running Ragsdales because you want too, or because you have too?

Just kidding! :nodi: I have to poke fun at the competition. uragod

Now seriously

We use a two slot rack on the AB with a 1776-SCB and a 1776-SCC, both are high speed modules.

The 1776-SCB recieves Air Strip Enable, Cupfeed Enable and an Air Strip Hi/Lo from the TI. It recieves the Air Strip Lo and a High pulse (window) from the AutoTech. This card controls, on the output side, the Air Strip Solenoid, and the Cupfeed Lockout.

The 1776-SCC card recieves a Short can sensor signal (Sencon, the best for this application). Short Can En, Clutch Control, Clutch Auto/Manual from TI plus Relays. Backstop and Short Can pulses from the AutoTech. The card does the Clutch/Brake control.

NOTE: These cards were made by a company called NTI not Allen-Bradely.

Three years ago when I hired in we added 4 Bodymakers and had no luck getting these cards so we went with a Clutch Brake controller made by Pressroom Electronics. I was completely new to this field and the tech support from them was and is extremely poor/non-existent/confused and a couple of other descriptions, disappointing to say the least.

On these new Bodymakers I use the TI to handle all the functions of the 1776s except for the Clutch/Brake. Took me a long time and a heck of alot of studying, but they work great now. beerchug (Alot of BEER too)

Thanks again for your reply

Do you use any special card in TI to accept high speed signal from resolver. (new body maker)

I also want to ask you about the theory of operation.

actualy i came into this field only one month before and immeditely this company is in process of upgrading 7 body maker.

OKL can line has supplied servo based cupfeed along with trio motion controller that gives 4 channels of window output.

now i have to interface that window signal from OKL can line into PLC.

So went on studying what omnicontroller or logic cards did.

I am still in study phase only.

is there any place where we can learn more about body maker and its electrical control.

now i have to either use the high speed window signals comming from OKL or use 1746 based high speed card from Electrocam or 1776SCB equivalent card for SLC.

can u please write more about the body maker operatoin or link me to any good website

many thanks

Your Fun is Just Starting!

I know EXACTLY what your going through and will be.

Count your grey hairs now and then attempt to count them in three months.

I have never looked for a web-site for reference, so I can not help you there. I am very fortunate, in the fact that the Main Machinist here is one of the best. He has travelled over seas on a several occassions to set-up operations and work on equipment. This guy is a walking Bodymaker/Cupper God. He doesn't know electrical, and doesn't pretend too, but he knows what the sensors are looking for and how the system ties together.

As for high speed cards in the TI. NOPE. I just use immediate updates and don't have a problem. I love these PLCs.

Some answers I need to know from you are, what size can are you making, and how fast are you running.
When you ask about Bodymaker operation, are you asking for the entire concept, or just the electrical. After building four of these guys, I have learned alot. To make them run correctly without the A-B PLC I had to learn the entire process on both the mechanical and the electrical side.

If I understood your statement correctly:

OKL can line has supplied servo based cupfeed along with trio motion controller that gives 4 channels of window output.

Click to expand...

You are not going to be using the AutoTech and resolver?
Four windows maybe enough but why the servo cupfeed. We use a mechanical feeder clutch/chain, perfect timing.

Start asking questions of the mechanics. Find the guy that really knows the equipment not just talks the talk. You let that guy know that you want to improve his process and he'll help you.

Answer the questions above or come up with specific ones and I'll get you an answer or one of these other gurus (Which I am not, the guys on this site are incredible in their knowledge) will. I don't want to go over things you may already know.

My 12 hours are done shortly, but I will be back in another 12, everyday.
I Love my job! beerchug oh I like beer Too.

Edit:
Are you making steel or aluminum cans? We're steel!

Thanks again for your continued support. ALso sorry for disturbing you.

We have good mechanical guy here. i did understand body maker operation from him. but he has no background on autotech or omni or PLC or electrical. he just showed me the sensor position.

We manufacture Aluminium can

Existing line speeds are 250 to 300 cans/min.Theoretical 325cans/in. but we hardly cross 280

As i said we have 14 body makers. out of 14 we are refurbishing / replacing control system on 7 of them.

In this 7 body makers some have resolver, autotech, omnicontroller SEA 3000 and PLC-2 with 1771-IT card

the rest had resolver, autotech and logic card(instead of Omnicontroller). these logic cards are from allen bradley. when i went through the logic card manuals it had fast square input card and some 2 input AND card etc. but could not understand them fully.

Now the one with omni controller is still much more confusing.

Because i have the logic printout of omni controller. some part of the program is in Ladder logic and other parts are in C language(high level). the ladder logic part i could understand mostly except for few odd instruction where i donot have any information on those instruction set.

I get confused because some body maker runs fine just with resolver, autotech and logic card and some body maker run with this omnicontroller.

there is almost 70 lines of program in omni controller.

now as per the new upgrade . ie with okl.

okl can line www.oklcan.com

OKL has supplied us the below for our Ragsdale body maker.

1. LGS - Linear RAM guidance system

2. Redraw carriage

3. SRCF - Servo driven rotary cup feed

all the above 3 are supplied by OKL and our mechanic had some training at okl and with that he is installing all the above three.

Now Servo driven rotary cup feed has the below parts.

Servo motor fitted on the cupfeed cam.
kollmorgen servo drive
trio motion controller
Encoder fitted on the crank shaft.

Due to this OKL can line they have removed our existing Resolver, autotech and omnicontroller.

Now this encoder along with Trio motion controller gives us four window output which we can set to any degree via their operator interface panel (from gefanuc - datapanel 150)

Now my job is to get these 4 window timing signal which are Backstop , cup stop, air stip and short can into my PLC and make the machine work.

I started with converting the PLC-2 program into SLC 500 ladder logic that part is over.

but as such that program was written to interface with omnicontroller or logic card.

Now if i understood what omni or logic card did then i would be atleast in some position to write the same with OKL.

I have put 1746-ITV16 fast input card into my SLC 500.

my worry is that will i be able to read these 4 window signals comming from OKL.

Even if the fast input card sesne these signal my PLC might be in Program scan and it might miss this signal.

AB SLC 500 also has immediate input and immediate output instruction.

suppose if i get two window signals at same time like back stop and airstip then what will happen.

OKL can without PLC control does the cupfeed part very well. with Trio motion controller.

now i have to either use these 4 signals from OKL or fit all those resolver, autotech and omnicontroller back and use OKL only for cupfeed and get the timing from existing system and run the old program itself. or install some cards like 1776-SCB or HSD with resolver on crankshaft .

so could not come to any conclusion and getting confused more.

Thanks again

Should not be a problem

At the speeds that you described above, I do not see where you will have a problem. We are in the 340-350 in high surge range depending on line conditions and number of Bodymakers actually running. Most of the time we set around the 320 CPM.

The windows for Short Can and Die Jam should just be matched up with the prox signals. What you are looking for here is:
As the ram pushes the can out of the ring pack you want the Short can window to open and start monitoring your prox which should be high (Can body present), Now you need to have that window open for the total distance (Degrees) that equals the length of the body you desire, the prox should also stay high. That sampling window must close, once the can is long enough, BEFORE, the end of the can clears the prox.
Ex. Window opens...Prox High...Window Closes...Don't care about prox state = Good Can
Window opens...Prox High...Prox Low before Window closes = Short Can Fault banghead

Virtually it is just the reverse for the Die/Can Jam window depending on your setup, I only know ours. For this window you Do Not want a body present during the sampling window. If you have a body there go into a Die/Can Jam.

Now the Air Strip is a different beast in our application. This window's size depends heavily on the speed of the machine. Since the windows can not be adjusted, on the fly, in the PLS, it has to be done in the processor. You will have to write a "Pulse Stretcher" to get the desired results. You want to make sure that the faster you run you still get that can off the ram. If your speed is high enough, once you process the signal and activate your stripper the window may close shutting off that signal and EVEN though the degrees of travel are the same, low speed to high speed, you will not get a sufficient stripper blow. (That just sounds dirty)
To compensate write the pulse stretcher.

suppose if i get two window signals at same time like back stop and airstip then what will happen.

Click to expand...

Do not worry about two signals (windows) happening at the same time. Your processor will get it. Handle every window on its own input. You actually want some of these signals overlapping.

ALso sorry for disturbing you.

Click to expand...

Don't give it a thought. Heck I get told all the time, anyone who loves TI PLCs must be disturb already.