Ab With Banner Eyes

rowens

Member
Join Date
Aug 2003
Location
south carolina
Posts
111
I have a system using AB 5/04 with a 110 volt input card connected to Banner photo eye #SMA915LVAG. This is the type of photo eye that uses a reflector and has a dry contact for the output. Everything worked fine when I first started the system last week. The problem I am having is the board will sense the photo eye is made but the eye will not be made. The on/off light on the sensor will say it is not made. I can disconnect the signal wire from the sensor(s) and the board will be saying that it is not made. I can replace the sensor and the system will work fine for a while. I have changed several sensors and would like a suggestion on what I can do to correct this reoccuring situation. The power is the same 110 volts suppling the plc that supplys the sensors. This is also the same power that supplies the contacts on the sensors to give a signal to the input board although it goes through some relays on the E stop circuit first. The problem is erratic in the sense that it is not the same photo eye giving the trouble. Any thoughts on my situation.
 
I don't know if this will help but Banner's documentation calls out:

"Install transient suppressor (MOV) across any output contact which switches an inductive load"

Could indicate some sensitivity to other things going on the circuit that seem unrelated.
 
Your relay contacts are welding together. Get one of the failed ones, remove power, & meter the contacts. If they are in the wrong state, IE, no power & they are energized, it's a definete.
 
rowens said:
would this go across the contacts of the sensor?

No, across any inductive loads you have connected to PLC outputs. Solenoid valves being the major culprit. Not knowing the details of your machine means this may not apply.
 
rowens said:
would relays connected to an output card affect the photoeye or input card?

Yes, they can. Heavy contacters are always suspect and its generally good design/build practice to put some kind of snubbing component on the coils. DC coils use diode or MOV suppressors, AC use R-C or MOV suppression.
 
The problem I am having is the board will sense the photo eye is made but the eye will not be made. The on/off light on the sensor will say it is not made.
Take the wire off your input from photo eye and see if the input is still made when this happens. If it is the problem is in your input card. Also make sure someone hasn`t changed the switch on your photo eye from light to dark.
 
I have taken off the wire and the input goes away. there is a n/o and n/c contact but no light / dark switch.

DC coils use diode or MOV suppressors, AC use R-C or MOV suppression.

Do you have any specific part number that may work in my application? It is all ac 120 volt. The only outputs go through a contact on the "E"-stop relays and then to the enable on mitsubishi ac drives.
 
rowens said:
I have taken off the wire and the input goes away. there is a n/o and n/c contact but no light / dark switch.



Do you have any specific part number that may work in my application? It is all ac 120 volt. The only outputs go through a contact on the "E"-stop relays and then to the enable on mitsubishi ac drives.

I have some Allen Bradley part numbers if it helps:

R-C suppressor is 199-MSMA1

MOV suppressor is 199-MSMV2
 
rowens said:
I have taken off the wire and the input goes away.

rowens,

Can you connect a 120v pilot light to the PLC input along with the photo eye and the other lead from the pilot light to neutral? Then check for operation. If the eye, plc input combination now functions as expected then you might be experencing induced voltage from your mitsubishi ac drives.
 
I will try that tomorrow. If it is how do I stop it?
Why would it be afecting random eyes? The drives are usually all on at the same time.
 
Last edited:
The only reason I mentioned the VFD's is I saw you mention them in post #9. When ever I have something strange happening and there are VFD's nearby. I suspect them first.

rowens said:
If it is how do I stop it?

One of the most important things for noise supression is distance. Never route VFD supply or motor leads near any other wiring. Second is shielding. Surround any motor leads with screened cable or conduit and ground at both ends and be sure to follow the VFD manufacture's recomendations for gounding.

If you are already good in these departments or can't change what you already have in place. Then a little load like a pilotlight or resistor may work sometimes finding the right ammount of load can be tricky. That's why it's best to do the distance / shielding thing first.

I just thought of another quick test. When the eyes / plc inputs are malfunctioning can you remove the power to the VFD's?


rowens said:
Why would it be afecting random eyes?

I'm curious is your 480 volt supply a floating delta? or high resistance center tapped Y? These types of transformer connections and VFD's can cause some very odd behavior. The noise the VFD makes wants to get back to the transformer any way it can find. I have never seen this but I can imagine that a 240/120 delta with a wild leg would also exhibit some strange behavior when a VFD was used. If you do have one of these type of transformer connections. Then My recomendation is to get a drive isolation transformer so that a proper grounding scheme an be employed.
 
milldrone said:
The only reason I mentioned the VFD's is I saw you mention them in post #9. When ever I have something strange happening and there are VFD's nearby. I suspect them first.





One of the most important things for noise supression is distance. Never route VFD supply or motor leads near any other wiring. Second is shielding. Surround any motor leads with screened cable or conduit and ground at both ends and be sure to follow the VFD manufacture's recomendations for gounding.​

We used a 14/4 VFD shielded cable and tied the shield on one end to ground. This is what was recommended. The distance is close to borderline on a couple of motors but the rest are fairly short runs.​



[/QUOTE]If you are already good in these departments or can't change what you already have in place.[/QUOTE]​

It would be hard to change any existing wiring in the field part but something cold be done in the PLC panel or the VFD panel.​

[/QUOTE] Then a little load like a pilotlight or resistor may work sometimes finding the right ammount of load can be tricky. That's why it's best to do the distance / shielding thing first.[/QUOTE]​

How would I go about figuring out the proper size resistor. we do not have a lot of things here to work with. I will have to purchse whatever we need locally.​









[/QUOTE]I just thought of another quick test. When the eyes / PLC inputs are malfunctioning can you remove the power to the VFD's?[/QUOTE]​





I can do this. I hope to get out to that system in a few minutes.



[/QUOTE]I'm curious is your 480 volt supply a floating delta? or high resistance center tapped Y? These types of transformer connections and VFD's can cause some very odd behavior. The noise the VFD makes wants to get back to the transformer any way it can find. I have never seen this but I can imagine that a 240/120 delta with a wild leg would also exhibit some strange behavior when a VFD was used. If you do have one of these type of transformer connections. Then My recomendation is to get a drive isolation transformer so that a proper grounding scheme an be employed.[/QUOTE]

The system transformers are delta primary and wye secondary. The 480 volts would be delta and 240/120 would be wye.Other than the 480 volt to the drives for the motors it would be 120 volt or 24 VDC.

An isolation transformer would be expensive wouldn't it? This is a small project but several motors are on it but only 6 photeyes at this time. The project may grow later. Any cheaper suggestions or other things to check first?
 
rowens said:
An isolation transformer would be expensive wouldn't it?

Yes. But if you had one of those floating delta networks most "Drive" guys like Dick DV and Leadfoot would insist on it.

rowens said:
I can disconnect the signal wire from the sensor(s) and the board will be saying that it is not made. I can replace the sensor and the system will work fine for a while.


rowens said:
The only outputs go through a contact on the "E"-stop relays and then to the enable on mitsubishi ac drives.

These two comments by you make me very suspicious of induced voltage from the VFD's.

Jstolaruk made this comment in his first post to this thread.

jstolaruk said:
Could indicate some sensitivity to other things going on the circuit that seem unrelated.

rowens said:
How would I go about figuring out the proper size resistor. we do not have a lot of things here to work with. I will have to purchse whatever we need locally.

I suggested a 120v pilotlight first because I thought you might have one laying arround. A 3.3K ohm 10 watt resistor has been my 120v "one size fits all" unit. One problem with a pilot light is the light can burn out and you will have problems again.

rowens said:
The system transformers are delta primary and wye secondary.

Is the center tap "y" grounded?
 

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