Engineering, how to organise things ?

userxyz

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I have some questions about organisation:

Some things to discuss are:

- To much freedom of programming S7 PLC's, everyone writes his own blocks. No discussion about programs, no written documents about every project (like, this FC and these DB's are used for that application). If there is discussion about blocks, can they be evaluated in some way ?

- Projects aren't discussed, just do it the way you want...

- Schematics are drawn in Autocad Lite, actually a Mechanical drawing program, but we use it for elektrical drawings...

- Isn't it better to plan a project on paper, and drawing + calculating + ordering + programdiscription holding in 1 archive ?
 
At my last position we set up a "programming standards team". The purpose of this team was to standardise programming so that every controls engineer followed the "standard" laid down by the team. This made it much easier for everyone to follow the program and almost anyone could debug another engineers program.
Obviously everyone still has their own style when it comes to programming but having a set of guidelines to work within ensures that anyone who works on that project can do so without having to get up to speed first.

Just my 2c worth.
 
How many people are you talking about? I think standards are easier when more people are involved. Just having standard naming conventions can be a big help. Most of the time I see the "old guy's" passing this information down to the "new guy's" and nothing is "standard" about the passing of information. Most of the time it comes from the old guy following the new guy and not liking what he finds.
 
Hi

CharlesM said:
How many people are you talking about? I think standards are easier when more people are involved. Just having standard naming conventions can be a big help. Most of the time I see the "old guy's" passing this information down to the "new guy's" and nothing is "standard" about the passing of information. Most of the time it comes from the old guy following the new guy and not liking what he finds.

If I understood what You just said, then I'm kinda in that situation, and that's the reason I'm asking this question.

I'm working in a Carpetfactory, with a 400 employers. We have 2 backing line, 3 printing lines and 25 tufting machines...

We have 6 electriciens, 9 mechanics and 2 guys (me and an older dude) specialised for automation & drives.

He is 43 and I am 25.

So, he did no higher education and went to school until his 18 years.

I did higher education, and seeing things in a different way because of that, I studied automation.

So, he is writing in Ladder since he started with programming and never changed this.

I also started In ladder, but in school you learn a lot of FBD in pneumatics and a lot of STL in the PLC classes.

My way of thinking is less basic in my opinion now. When I write something, and it's something sequential, then I make a flowchart and I write it mostly in STL in a really fast way I think...

He allways writes in lad, even sequential things without making flowcharts, just programming and testing until it works. That's one thing.

Schematics are done in Autocad, electrical drawings in autocad, for real !!... Good method ??


He is constantly ignoring the STL programmation and even hates it... maybe he is an old fashion electrician thinker ?
 
For what I understand, there are 2 people that are writing the code. So, you can sit with the other one, and talk it.

I don't see any problem in writing in ladder, if he feels confortable with that. In a second hand, maybe you can help him get the basics of STL and doing so, maybe he can start using it also.

And for the drawings... we use here also Autocad to make them. I don't know if it the best an most fast method, but it's ok. Be greatfull that they are done and they exist.
 
hey

Well, I agree in some way...

But, the problem is that I have no problem with changing my programming style. But here we have freedom, program it, and afterwards you can get the critics...

He doesn't want to learn STL, his way is the good way, he thinks that because he's older
 
Combo said:
If I understood what You just said, then I'm kinda in that situation, and that's the reason I'm asking this question.

I'm working in a Carpetfactory, with a 400 employers. We have 2 backing line, 3 printing lines and 25 tufting machines...

We have 6 electriciens, 9 mechanics and 2 guys (me and an older dude) specialised for automation & drives.

He is 43 and I am 25.

So, he did no higher education and went to school until his 18 years.

I did higher education, and seeing things in a different way because of that, I studied automation.

So, he is writing in Ladder since he started with programming and never changed this.

I also started In ladder, but in school you learn a lot of FBD in pneumatics and a lot of STL in the PLC classes.

My way of thinking is less basic in my opinion now. When I write something, and it's something sequential, then I make a flowchart and I write it mostly in STL in a really fast way I think...

He allways writes in lad, even sequential things without making flowcharts, just programming and testing until it works. That's one thing.

Schematics are done in Autocad, electrical drawings in autocad, for real !!... Good method ??


He is constantly ignoring the STL programmation and even hates it... maybe he is an old fashion electrician thinker ?

Hi Combo,

I think as usual it's down to what everyone understands and is comfortable with. My position in the company is much the same as yours I was initially employed as a technician type to look after the automated equipment at work with another guy in the same role as me and 5 other electricians.

I'm 28 and my preference is Ladder programming, I too hold higher level qualifications. This is because The company I worked for prior was a large systems integrator, I was taught to use Ladder and worked primarily on Allen Bradley PLC's. However, older and wiser engineers that worked primarily on Siemens PLC's (S5) used Statement list!

Also, it seem's to differ a lot but you find that some engineer's only do PLC programming (leaving the electrical design to others) whilst other engineers are responsible for all aspect's of a project, PLC, SCADA and all the electrical design which is what i used to do. In this kind of role Ladder programming always made more sense to me as it was an electrical schematic and i can relate that to the hardware aspects of the job. But to someone that just writes code I can appreciate that STL is cleaner and faster to write. So maybe it is an electricians thinking - but i don't find that old fashioned.

The other upside to ladder is that if you commission a project for another company i like to think of the maintainability of the code as well as the hardware. I think most maintenance electricians would be able to understand a ladder diagram whereas STL is a different kettle of fish and not all companies have specialised technicians.

I too used to have to use AutoCAD to do Electrical and Mechanical drawings, whilst I like autoCAD there are Electrical packages on the market that would have no doubt done a much better job. However, cost was always an issue, why purchase two bits of expensive software when we could manage with one that will do both jobs, all be it slower. Eventually we developed AutoCAD to suit the electrical drawings using LISP Files and symbol libraries to make life easier and just lived with it.

The other consideration was that the last company was customer driven and most companies we worked for required our drawings to be done on AutoCAD, with their drawing templates and title blocks. Now as a amintenance engineer i find that i can't modify the electrical drawings that came with a project because some are done on Eplan etc whilst we only have autoCAD and the bulk of the civil, mechanical and electrical drawings the company holds are done on AutoCAD. This would also be the case that the bulk of your drawings may be in AutoCAD using something else now may cause problems in how you manage your drawings.

All the best.

Cheers,

Lee
 
sapoleon said:
And for the drawings... we use here also Autocad to make them. I don't know if it the best an most fast method, but it's ok. Be greatfull that they are done and they exist.

Sapoleon,

I agree entirely with this comment! we have equipment that have no drawings at all. Even a hand writtn drawing on a screwed up bit of paper would have been better then that!

I think that at the end of the day, regardless of what package you have used, The drawings will mainly be used for maintenance in a paper format so the package used is transparent. As long as i've got a folder full of drawings in the panel i'm happy!

Cheers,

Lee
 
We use standards too...

Combo,

We also use standards as well. They were orignally outlined by the engineering firm that did our upgrade about 6-7 years ago.
Even though they are not on site anymore, we still follow the programming standards set out by them. We have a set of "common code" from how a program is structured (skeleton task, basic blank program structure) to how we write code for a starter, solenoid value, PID loop, interlocking etc... We also adhere to common naming conventions. Memory maps are already defined, kept track of and updated as memory locations are used up. For troubleshooting this makes it way easier and simpler for us and the electricians. In the plant, all the HMI's have the same "look and feel" so if an operator moves from a line to another,they can adapt easier. The majoritiy of the operator desk's are layed out simular as well. '

As for when we initiate a project, we don't do a lick of programming until a functional spec is written. Most of the time, my group does not write the spec, we will review it and make suggestions though. We even have a standard for the funtional spec as well( at least for the level side). So I would say standards help tremendously.

Andrew
 
Combo said:
He doesn't want to learn STL, his way is the good way, he thinks that because he's older

This is where you are going down the wrong road. It has nothing to do with him being older. Rather, he thinks his way is the good way because his way has worked for him in the past, so he has a comfort level. Heck, I'm older than he is, and I am teaching myself php and Python scripting for a GUI I need to come up with. But I still work with guys 20 years younger than me who would never think out of the box.

Usually when people resist change or new approaches, it is because of a fear of the unknown. If I were you, I would sit down with him and break apart a program and show him where in some cases STL would be a much better choice than ladder.
 
Combo said:
Well, I agree in some way...

But, the problem is that I have no problem with changing my programming style. But here we have freedom, program it, and afterwards you can get the critics...

He doesn't want to learn STL, his way is the good way, he thinks that because he's older

If you have no problem with changing your programming style, why not put STL on the back burner for a bit? His gained knowledge from work experience surpasses your knowledge despite your higher education. Be motivated to learn from that. You've got a good handle on STL, why not make yourself more marketable by soaking up his knowledge of ladder? Put effort into doing things his way, create mutual respect. As time goes on put bits and pieces of STL out there for him to chew on.

Motivation is a key factor in learning, he's probably happy with where he is at, you, like myself are young to the industry and have a lot of learning to do. I say soak it up while you can. That's what I'm doing.
 
I wouldnt try to learn your old collegue another programming language unless there are exceptionally good reasons for it.

Me, I prefer LAD for general code, and STL for math and code that must be extra optimised. I am moving to use SCL for the most complicated stuff.

I think that LAD beats STL in one very important aspect. When you are looking at code online, and the status of bits are changing dynamically, LAD is far easier to decode logically than STL.
With LAD you just have to make the green light connect from the leftmost rung to the coils in the right side. This you can do in an instance. No need to "interpret" anything. It is 100% graphical (and better than FBD to my opinion).

With STL you have to read and interpret the lines one by one, which can get a bit confusing if the bits are changing dynamically. Trained persons are probably very good at STL, but is that an argument for that it is better and that everybody should do it ?
That many people swear by LAD because it is easier for them is maybe because LAD is easier than STL.
Yeah, you can save a fraction of the scan time, and a small amount of memory by writing in STL, but for 99% of the applications this is irrelevant.

About programming standards. Forget it. They become straightjackets more than anything else. What is important is that interfaces are standardised. That includes Human - Machine interfaces, Machine - Machine interfaces, and Software - software interfaces. What happens on the other side of the interface is not so important.
Your collegue has a different approach to tackling a job. His approach sounds like "bottom-up" while yours is more "top-down". One is not ultimately better than the other.

You should request from your collegue that he documents his code as well as possible. Even if his style is to works his way to the solution rather than making a wellprepared plan in advance, then he should finish the work with a precise documentation.

Maybe you should buy him a license for GRAPH.
 
Combo said:
If I understood what You just said, then I'm kinda in that situation, and that's the reason I'm asking this question.

I'm working in a Carpetfactory, with a 400 employers. We have 2 backing line, 3 printing lines and 25 tufting machines...

We have 6 electriciens, 9 mechanics and 2 guys (me and an older dude) specialised for automation & drives.

He is 43 and I am 25.

So, he did no higher education and went to school until his 18 years.

I did higher education, and seeing things in a different way because of that, I studied automation.

So, he is writing in Ladder since he started with programming and never changed this.

I also started In ladder, but in school you learn a lot of FBD in pneumatics and a lot of STL in the PLC classes.

My way of thinking is less basic in my opinion now. When I write something, and it's something sequential, then I make a flowchart and I write it mostly in STL in a really fast way I think...

He allways writes in lad, even sequential things without making flowcharts, just programming and testing until it works. That's one thing.

Schematics are done in Autocad, electrical drawings in autocad, for real !!... Good method ??


He is constantly ignoring the STL programmation and even hates it... maybe he is an old fashion electrician thinker ?

Combo,

One thing that you don't want to do is to presume that YOU can't learn from "the older dude" (I guess I've officially arrived, I'm 43, too....) DON'T presume that your ways are absolutely the best and his are no good. Just because you've been to school doesn't mean much in real life. I have a 4-year college degree - but the best teachers I've had were those who started out as "just electricians" and taught themselves the control world the hard way.

He's got years of experience that you don't. Fancy programming techniques don't work any better than "basic" techniques. As a matter of fact, often times, simple techniques will be better in implementation because they're easier for the plant technicians to follow.

You are currently in the process of alienating him. There will be a time when you need to work with him, when you'll need his help. I sense from what you've written (in this and other threads) that you soon won't have his support. And how he relates with you will carry over to others in the plant... he's got the experience and relationships that are needed to succeed in plant life. You're not there, yet... You've got to learn to work with him as a team member. You're not an island. Working together will require your submission to him, too. Not just his accepting your new-fangled methods.

We're going through exactly this same situation in one of our plants right now. They've hired a young kid who's doing a co-op associated with his schooling. Thing is... he can barely spell PLC and couldn't program his way out of a paper-bag, yet he's already had the guts to tell us that he's much better than those of us who've been doing this for 20+ years. He's never worked on a system outside of his school labs, but already knows better than those of us who have installed/programmed literally hundreds of thousands (maybe millions??) of points of IO. This kid isn't going to last long in real life...

Flow charts are great! I program with them, too. I also use AutoCAD to do my schematics and flowcharts... That's what my company has provided to me. The method of documenting the project isn't as important as actually documenting the project! But you know what?? I've also programmed systems without flow charts or schematics -- because that's what I've been provided and, honestly, that's been what's needed. Does that make this old man a bad programmer.
 
It must be something in the water or air nowadays. It seems everybody has a "know it all" at their company. Ours is a little older and never worked in an automation/controls environment. But always thinks his way is better than everyone elses. Even
when he asks for help he shoots down what people tell him and does it his way. Plus he never makes mistakes. Sound familiar?
 
Road_Guy said:
It must be something in the water or air nowadays. It seems everybody has a "know it all" at their company. Ours is a little older and never worked in an automation/controls environment. But always thinks his way is better than everyone elses. Even
when he asks for help he shoots down what people tell him and does it his way. Plus he never makes mistakes. Sound familiar?

I work for that guy!
 

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