Training...Who, What and Where

Hi Guys,

I am an electrical contractor and have a customer who is looking to slowly switch his operations over to plc's. He is rather adamant that I would be able to install, program and service these systems. Without saying, I am excited about this opportunity.

We are looking at using Modicon M340 systems with Unity Pro and Vijeo software. The biggest reason is for the support that is available locally.

I would like to start instructor based training soon and am looking for suggestions. I have been considering the PLC Bootcamp but that appears to be based upon the AB systems. While I wouldn't mind learning about the AB units my main concern is with what I will be using right away.

My background is 25 years of Commercial/Industrial work with a good knowledge of controls.

Any advice on getting started would be appreciated.

MP

MiPilot said:

Hi Guys,
We are looking at using Modicon M340 systems with Unity Pro and Vijeo software. The biggest reason is for the support that is available locally.

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Are you dead-set on Modicon? I know that local support is important, but I would think that you would get better support with A-B just about anywhere in Michigan.

I don't see a lot of Modicon hardware out there these days, and I would guess that you will have a lot tougher time getting support/spare parts from them than you would with one of the bigger PLC manufacturers. I would think that you would have more useful/marketable skills if you went that way as well. That's just my personal opinion though.

jimbo3123 said:

Are you dead-set on Modicon? I know that local support is important, but I would think that you would get better support with A-B just about anywhere in Michigan.

I don't see a lot of Modicon hardware out there these days, and I would guess that you will have a lot tougher time getting support/spare parts from them than you would with one of the bigger PLC manufacturers. I would think that you would have more useful/marketable skills if you went that way as well. That's just my personal opinion though.

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I agree.

Am I using the correct product name with Modicon.....I am referring to Square D/Schneider Electric

Reasons for not using A-B

Our local A-B distributer is anything but a beacon of support. I actually had the branch manager tell me that he could not get me replacement parts for a size 4 starter on a Saturday night because the factory was closed.

I found the customer service number online and had the replacement parts put on an airplane and had them Sunday AM.

Cost.....I had asked the above distributer to quote a few VFD's and SMC and they came back with pricing right out of the catalog. Square D would like the business.

I will NOT install A-B unless I open a branch in the Detroit area in an attempt to circumvent using this distributer.

If this works as well as we believe.....we are looking at the possibility of install 4 systems at one location alone and he owns several more locations.

Thanks Again

I would guess that you will have a lot tougher time getting support/spare parts from them

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Not sure about over there, but here Schneider support is excellent and FREE (no support contracts required)

I would think that you would have more useful/marketable skills if you went that way as well

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Modicon (Schneider) uses the IEC programming language, as opposed to the proprietary version that AB uses, I would think experience with an IEC based language would offer very marketable skills. Lots of companies use the IEC language, 1 uses AB programming language.

Also - we have used the M340 on a large number of projects and have found it to be an excellent PLC, easily my first choice

MiPilot said:

Hi Guys,

I am an electrical contractor and have a customer who is looking to slowly switch his operations over to plc's. He is rather adamant that I would be able to install, program and service these systems. Without saying, I am excited about this opportunity.

Click to expand...

Sounds like a great opportunity, however I question if this would be the right solution for your customer. There is a lot to think about when it comes to designing and implementing control systems, that knowledge can't necessarily be learned from the classroom. It's one thing to program an HMI with a few buttons and indicators, quite another to integrate a plant.

You really should recommend partnering with a Systems Integrator to get their expertise on what the plant's path forward should be. You could still serve as the local support and tinker as needed, but let the pro's handle initial systems. You handle the electrical install, then learn the programming during the commissioning of the system and take over support from there. This would be the best avenue for you to really learn about controls and doing things the right way. Plus, it will get PLC systems into the plant 10x faster then you could provide.

MiPilot said:

Reasons for not using A-B

Our local A-B distributer is anything but a beacon of support. I actually had the branch manager tell me that he could not get me replacement parts for a size 4 starter on a Saturday night because the factory was closed.

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That's a heck of a stretch for any distributor. Especially in today's economy with distributors running their shelves down bare because they don't want to carry the inventory and the tax burden. Be prepared for most distributors replying with a couple of day shipment from the factory - even from biggies like McNaughton McKay

Better identify your crucial items and stock them yourself if you have to respond within a weekend.

You are on the path to success.
Are you (or your employees) in your customer's facilities all the time?

Do you and your employees understand that your customer has specific quality criteria, and shipment deadlines to their customer?

What I am getting at here is, sometimes a customer will ask a vendor (electrical contractor) to provide a service, but the customer may not convey ALL of the requirements, (Quality specs, and delivery time frames). It is up to YOU to take the "bull-by-the-horns". Your customer just wants to write you a check to make all of his problems "go-away". You need to come into this relationship with FULL OWNERSHIP, meaning that you will "lay-down-and-die" next to the machine before your customer fails to meet their customer's needs.

If you and your employees understand the above policy, and the END result, then you should be able to provide controls solutions. This was the key to our success, migrating from ELECTRICIAN ONLY to Electricians and Controls Solutions Providers. Also this will mean 24/7/365 support. Will you and/or your employees be willing to work on Thanksgiving, and or Christmas Day? Will you be able to wake up an employee at 3:00am on a Saturday morning to attend a production critical service call?

You will also want to leverage the local "industrial automation" supply house who is selling the customer all of the controls in-house, to provide support to the products that need service, and expansion.

MiPilot said:

I have been considering the PLC Bootcamp but that appears to be based upon the AB systems

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If you do go with AB then PLC Bootcamp is a very good choice...

As far as the other... PLC is a PLC is a PLC, find out what your customer (or end user) wants as they are going to end up supporting it in the end

Not your "Father's Buick"

Ken Roach said:

I cannot imagine an A-B distributor in Michigan who doesn't want business.

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Ken Roach said:

It sounds to me that they don't want your business.

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In the 1980's and 1990's... Times were FAT and LAZY, no competition, just buy the DeFacto Standard, and move on.

BUT NOT NOW....

Times are changed, Our old Policy was AB Only because no matter where you were in the USA, you could get in your car and get a replacement within a few hours. THOSE TIMES ARE NOT HERE NOW. We can not buy AB ML1400 Off the shelf?, we are going Horner for that project. A peer of mine can't get AB Ethernet I/O blocks off the shelf? He bought TURCK.

I wish the best for AB, (out of respect), but my company, and customers have us reaching for the most economical, and READILY AVAILABLE products.

Everybody in America has faced unbelievable changes in the way to do business.... I hope AB can catch the wave, because I truly like the "Quality, Availability, and Service" that we used to have.

wow, i gotta admit, you got the salesman's hype down pat. But if your products and services require constant support, you're doing something wrong. As we speak, I'm in Mexico commissioning a robotics cell for Chrysler. I don't plan on coming down here on every little issue so the best thing is to make sure its right when I leave.

I've said this before, my primary motivation is not to hear the phone ring about a project after I'm done and have left the site. Unless its some product change that generates a purchase order.

Paully's5.0 said:

You really should recommend partnering with a Systems Integrator to get their expertise on what the plant's path forward should be.

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We have and still are considering this. You have some valid points which were received.

Plastic said:

You are on the path to success.
Are you (or your employees) in your customer's facilities all the time?

Do you and your employees understand that your customer has specific quality criteria, and shipment deadlines to their customer?

What I am getting at here is, sometimes a customer will ask a vendor (electrical contractor) to provide a service, but the customer may not convey ALL of the requirements, (Quality specs, and delivery time frames). It is up to YOU to take the "bull-by-the-horns". Your customer just wants to write you a check to make all of his problems "go-away". You need to come into this relationship with FULL OWNERSHIP, meaning that you will "lay-down-and-die" next to the machine before your customer fails to meet their customer's needs.

If you and your employees understand the above policy, and the END result, then you should be able to provide controls solutions. This was the key to our success, migrating from ELECTRICIAN ONLY to Electricians and Controls Solutions Providers. Also this will mean 24/7/365 support. Will you and/or your employees be willing to work on Thanksgiving, and or Christmas Day? Will you be able to wake up an employee at 3:00am on a Saturday morning to attend a production critical service call?

You will also want to leverage the local "industrial automation" supply house who is selling the customer all of the controls in-house, to provide support to the products that need service, and expansion.

Click to expand...

Yes and No.....We are very local to the facilities and give them top priority. We are already provide 24/7 on call service which is why they want me involved.

jstolaruk said:

I've said this before, my primary motivation is not to hear the phone ring about a project after I'm done and have left the site. Unless its some product change that generates a purchase order.

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I couldn't agree more. I have never seen ANY profit from call backs.



Since we are still with the Square D/Schneider approach. Is there any opinion on the factory training verses other.

Listen guys, the last thing I want to do is cobble this in and leave a mess for someone else. If I am not 100% confident I can do this I will seek help.

The economy where I am located is not good and this opertunity could benefit all parties involved.


Thanks Again..............

I was pretty grumpy when I posted what Plastic cited, and I removed; please forgive my foul mood.

I have provided service, training, and emergency parts for my Rockwell Automation customers for a over a decade, but you could certainly find a few with a low opinion of my effort and attention. It's probably a mutual feeling.

If you think you're going to get good local support from a distributor who is hungry for your business and you don't have a history with, by all means go for it.

See if the training coordinator will give you a couple of names of former students who you can ask about their training success.

Ken Roach said:

I was pretty grumpy when I posted what Plastic cited, and I removed; please forgive my foul mood.

I have provided service, training, and emergency parts for my Rockwell Automation customers for a over a decade, but you could certainly find a few with a low opinion of my effort and attention. It's probably a mutual feeling.

If you think you're going to get good local support from a distributor who is hungry for your business and you don't have a history with, by all means go for it.

See if the training coordinator will give you a couple of names of former students who you can ask about their training success.

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Regarding your last post......theres not a lot of love between us and them and hasn't been for a couple of years.