Rain flood warning system

danesh · Mar 11, 2012

Dears,
I want to integrate a flood warning system, this system consist of a main station and some remote stations that transfer data to main station.
If no rain data must transfers only twice a day but if rain data must to transfer every 5 min.
What is your solution?

Regards,
Mohammad Javad

jvdcande · Mar 11, 2012

danesh said:
What is your solution?

What are you paying?

Bob O · Mar 11, 2012

My first solution [Not the best] would be to install one of these at every site and them maybe have a couple back-ups.

I would then have the site operator report the reading as requested.

Doug_Adam · Mar 11, 2012

Finally, a system that, if it fails on demand, will result in multiple fatalities.
What does everyone think? SIL4 or SIL3?

RussB · Mar 11, 2012

danesh said:
Dears,
I want to integrate a flood warning system,
Mohammad Javad

Around here we call them "windows". When we see it rain for a long period of time we watch for flooding. YMMV

iant · Mar 11, 2012

how much rain are we talking about and in how much time.
Also what type of terain...
you could employ a 'Rain Boy'
he could run around in circles with his tounge hanging out then tell you.

seriously at the end of the day a cheap water detection device is all you need. small rocking arm type with a Prox. Switch
then a smart relay to count the pulses from the device.
simple maths and an RTC will do the work.
Use some form of comms to the master.

leitmotif · Mar 11, 2012

Let us see if I comprehend
What you want is a warning system for flash flooding. Good idea depending on where you are. Big problem in desert areas bounded by mountains here in USA.

CRITERIA
No rain dont worry about it - makes sense
Start raining take rain gage measurement every 5 minute to enable flood prediction.
So what you really need is a remote mount, untended, rain gage with communication over a long distance. Or multiple units.

Dan Bentler

Eric Nelson · Mar 12, 2012

I just copy/pasted Mohammad's entire question into Google. Of course, the first hit is this thread (too bad Google just lurks here and never posts...haha), but a bit further down I found an excellent paper that looks like it should cover every detail...

http://groups.csail.mit.edu/drl/wiki/images/a/a1/BashaSenSys08.pdf

Our work is done!... :site:

-Eric

Mickey · Mar 12, 2012

Google also found this one. I like it.

http://www.techlib.com/electronics/raindetectors.htm

Saffa · Mar 12, 2012

Pretty much what IanT said.

We use these rain gauges on our sites:

http://www.scottech.net/products/by_supplier/hydrological_services_/tb3_tipping_bucket_rain_guage/

Pulses accumulated in an RTU (we use RTU's made here in NZ by Qtech Data Systems - www.qtech.co.nz, but you can count pulses with anything - PLC, smart relay, microprocessor).

Accumulated totals returned to the base on a frequent poll cycle (reliably every 5 minutes would be easily achieved with UHF or VHF digital radio if you only have a few sites, maybe under 20?). Wouldn't bother trying to change it depending on if there's rain or not, just do it at 5 min intervals all the time.

We use Tait 8110's on our sites, but there are plenty of good digital radios out there. GME in Australia make some reasonably priced ones too which take RS232 very easily so easy to interface to most simple devices.

I Hope you've got a hydrologist and mathematical modeller to put together the model that predicts when it's going to flood, i wouldn't leave that to some poor programmer with the brief of "Make flood Detection System, Make it Work Good".!

danesh · Mar 12, 2012

First of all I am very glad that this topic is a bit fun for my friends, haaahaaa, windows, rain boy and … hhaaa haaa!
I use rain gauge and rain detector and no problem in sensing My main problem in communication protocol, I want to use modbus but mudbus reads every 1sec(for example) but I need read if rain and if not rain no data reading by master. Can modbus do this? Or not which protocol can do this?

Regards,
Mohammad Javad

danesh · Mar 12, 2012

First of all I am very glad that this topic is a bit fun for my friends, haaahaaa, windows, rain boy and … hhaaa haaa!

I use rain gauge and rain detector and no problem in sensing My main problem in communication protocol, I want to use modbus but mudbus reads every 1sec(for example) but I need read if rain and if not rain no data reading by master. Can modbus do this? Or not which protocol can do this?

Regards,
Mohammad Javad

danesh · Mar 12, 2012

Dear Saffa
Very thanks for your good answer, great , I do like you say, we have 50 sites and use RTU for pulse counting but we want to use GPRS communication refer to data traffic costs need to communicate in rain only and this is main problem. Can communicate if rain only?
We have hydrologist and mathematical modeler for flood detection.

Regards,
Mohammad Javad

Saffa said:
Pretty much what IanT said.

We use these rain gauges on our sites:

http://www.scottech.net/products/by_supplier/hydrological_services_/tb3_tipping_bucket_rain_guage/

Pulses accumulated in an RTU (we use RTU's made here in NZ by Qtech Data Systems - www.qtech.co.nz, but you can count pulses with anything - PLC, smart relay, microprocessor).

Accumulated totals returned to the base on a frequent poll cycle (reliably every 5 minutes would be easily achieved with UHF or VHF digital radio if you only have a few sites, maybe under 20?). Wouldn't bother trying to change it depending on if there's rain or not, just do it at 5 min intervals all the time.

We use Tait 8110's on our sites, but there are plenty of good digital radios out there. GME in Australia make some reasonably priced ones too which take RS232 very easily so easy to interface to most simple devices.

I Hope you've got a hydrologist and mathematical modeller to put together the model that predicts when it's going to flood, i wouldn't leave that to some poor programmer with the brief of "Make flood Detection System, Make it Work Good".!

Saffa · Mar 12, 2012

So you have existing RTUs? what make / model of RTU?

The ones we use have basic programming facilities, so we are able to set up Change Of State communications, i.e. if Rainfall rate exceeds a preset value, initiate comms with the base. This ability would be dependent on your RTU of course.

Are you using radio at the moment? i'm not a big fan of cellular comms myself, since you're at the Telco's mercy. Cost would depend on your pricing plan and how much data you use. I have set up a couple of cellular sites before, and for something small like a single rainfall accumulator it probably wouldn't require anything more than 1-2 MB of data per month. best to set up a test site and trial it to see how much data you use - It's unclear from your post whether you already use GPRS at these sites or are thinking of it?

That's why I prefer radio - use as much as you want, only costs you whatever your licence cost is plus a bit of routine maintenance on your repeater.

danesh · Mar 12, 2012

Dear Saffa
Very thanks; I am thinking to using GPRS so if radio is more economically can be change the plan.
I don’t select RTU yet, are you have any suggestion?

Regards,
Mohammad Javad

Saffa said:
So you have existing RTUs? what make / model of RTU?

The ones we use have basic programming facilities, so we are able to set up Change Of State communications, i.e. if Rainfall rate exceeds a preset value, initiate comms with the base. This ability would be dependent on your RTU of course.

Are you using radio at the moment? i'm not a big fan of cellular comms myself, since you're at the Telco's mercy. Cost would depend on your pricing plan and how much data you use. I have set up a couple of cellular sites before, and for something small like a single rainfall accumulator it probably wouldn't require anything more than 1-2 MB of data per month. best to set up a test site and trial it to see how much data you use - It's unclear from your post whether you already use GPRS at these sites or are thinking of it?

That's why I prefer radio - use as much as you want, only costs you whatever your licence cost is plus a bit of routine maintenance on your repeater.

Rain flood warning system

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