learning in progress

I'd like to start out and say Hello! I'm a dad of 3 and here to take advantage of my new job lab items. However, this is something that I have to learn off hours on my dime and when the fam is sleeping. I'm brand new to the site so go as rough as you want(I can handle any type of criticism). I just aquired a Direct Logic 205 - D2-09B-1 with the following slots filled(in order):

-DL260 CPU -D2-260 CPU
-D2-16ND3-2 (IN - 24VDC 20-28VDC 8mA)
-H2-ECOM100
-D2-16TD2-2 (OUT - 12-24VDC 10.2-26.4VDC 0.1A)
-F2-08AD-2 (IN - ANALOG 8CH)
-F2-08AD-1 (IN - ANALOG 8CH)
-F2-08AD-1 (IN - ANALOG 8CH)
-F2-08DA-2 (OUT - ANALOG 8CH)
-F2-08DA-1 (OUT - ANALOG 8CH 18-26.4VDC 80mA 4-20mA SNK-SRC)

I'm looking to just have some fun with this and feed a desire. I have some ideas as what I'd like to start with on this unit but my weakness right now is is understanding the voltage and some relays. I'd like to figure out how to set up or identify what I'd need to create action item one. Temperature Control:to be able to monitor and turn on/off or even speed control of a 12v 3.0a fan(s). Now I have read about drop in card module(F2-04THM - 4 CHANNEL THERMOCOUPLE) for the DL205. I'd like not to have to buy 2 of these but if its the cheapest way to make this work then that's chill. I'd to know if there is an alternate alternative,

I do have access to a good amount of things like 15v and 24v PSU's along with Terminal Blocks and SSR, even some Red Lion Controls and other similar related items. My goal is to make best use of my resources without having to drop to much coin into this learning project. Any and all suggestion/comments are greatly appreciated and look forward to some KNOWLEDGE!

I'd like to figure out how to set up or identify what I'd need to create action item one. Temperature Control: to be able to monitor and turn on/off, or even speed control of a 12v 3.0a fan(s).

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Hello, Dad, and welcome to the forum.

For good fan control, you will need some type of temperature sensor that has an analog outut. There are temperature transmitters that accept a thermocouple or RTD sensor input, and produce 4-to-20 miliamp or 0-to-10 volt outputs. (A transmitter would be a lot cheaper than the Automation Direct Thermocouple Input Module). Then you would wire the transmitter output to one of your PLC analog INPUTS (Items 5, 6, and 7 on your list). That gets you the temperature inside the PLC. Then you can use that temperature input to control your Fan Output, which can be a digital output on your digital Output Module (Item 4 on your list).

Another cheap method would be to use a ON/OFF temperature switch to send an input to your PLC digital Input module, then write a rung of logic to turn you fan on or off based on the switch input. That would require no additional items except a cheap temperature switch of some type - maybe an old spring-type thermostat from a broken coffee maker or toaster or hair dryer. You would have to warp it slightly to bring it ON at a lower temperature.

Now I have read about drop in card module(F2-04THM - 4 CHANNEL THERMOCOUPLE) for the DL205. I'd like not to have to buy 2 of these. . .

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One of the 4-channel thermocouple modules will allow you to read 4 separate temperatures, so probably for your purposes, you would only ever need 1, not 2 of these.

PLCtreaged said:

I'd like to start out and say Hello! I'm a dad of 3 and here to take advantage of my new job lab items. However, this is something that I have to learn off hours on my dime and when the fam is sleeping. I'm brand new to the site so go as rough as you want(I can handle any type of criticism). I just aquired a Direct Logic 205 - D2-09B-1 with the following slots filled(in order):

-DL260 CPU -D2-260 CPU
-D2-16ND3-2 (IN - 24VDC 20-28VDC 8mA)
-H2-ECOM100
-D2-16TD2-2 (OUT - 12-24VDC 10.2-26.4VDC 0.1A)
-F2-08AD-2 (IN - ANALOG 8CH)
-F2-08AD-1 (IN - ANALOG 8CH)
-F2-08AD-1 (IN - ANALOG 8CH)
-F2-08DA-2 (OUT - ANALOG 8CH)
-F2-08DA-1 (OUT - ANALOG 8CH 18-26.4VDC 80mA 4-20mA SNK-SRC)

My goal is to make best use of my resources without having to drop to much coin into this learning project. Any and all suggestion/comments are greatly appreciated and look forward to some KNOWLEDGE!

Click to expand...

I see no mention of software. There are three possibilities to consider.
1. Use the demo version (100 words). (Free)
2. Buy a DirectSoft5 license ($395).
3. Sell the 260 processor on Ebay and buy a DoMore processor ($299) the software for this processor is free.

Lancie, thanks for the welcome! See my comments in Orange

Lancie1 said:

Hello, Dad, and welcome to the forum.

For good fan control, you will need some type of temperature sensor that has an analog outut. There are temperature transmitters that accept a thermocouple or RTD sensor input, and produce 4-to-20 miliamp or 0-to-10 volt outputs. (A transmitter would be a lot cheaper than the Automation Direct Thermocouple Input Module). Then you would wire the transmitter output to one of your PLC analog INPUTS (Items 5, 6, and 7 on your list). That gets you the temperature inside the PLC. Then you can use that temperature input to control your Fan Output, which can be a digital output on your digital Output Module (Item 4 on your list).
Temp sensor... something like a RED LION P16 SERIES Control? if so great because I have a few lying around and have wired temp sensor (1309007-44)

Another cheap method would be to use a ON/OFF temperature switch to send an input to your PLC digital Input module, then write a rung of logic to turn you fan on or off based on the switch input. That would require no additional items except a cheap temperature switch of some type - maybe an old spring-type thermostat from a broken coffee maker or toaster or hair dryer. You would have to warp it slightly to bring it ON at a lower temperature.Interesting and totally like the repurposing now I have a reason to hold on to the wife's "trashed" hair dryer but I really would like to go the 1st route due to the fact I want to be able to speed up/slow down fan esp if I have the right gear at no cost.

One of the 4-channel thermocouple modules will allow you to read 4 separate temperatures, so probably for your purposes, you would only ever need 1, not 2 of these.

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Good to know! I just thought for some reason I'd need the "IN" module and a "OUT" module.

milldrone said:

I see no mention of software. There are three possibilities to consider.
1. Use the demo version (100 words). (Free)
2. Buy a DirectSoft5 license ($395).
3. Sell the 260 processor on Ebay and buy a DoMore processor ($299) the software for this processor is free.

Click to expand...

1&2 are a question I've questioning since the beginning and now giving me reason to make a swap. I'm just holding out till tuesday to see if my colleague has a copy of the license for DirectSoft.

How would using an Allen Bradley MICROlogix 1200 be for all this? I have RSlogix and RSlinx available.

The ML1200 would be just as good. You would have to buy an additional 1762-IF4 analoge input card though as there are only digital inputs and outputs on the ML1200 it self.
You would also need a serial programming cable. I don't remember the partnumber though.
The positive side of choosing an Allen Bradley PLC instead of a DL is that they are more widely used so information is easier to get at. You can try the "Learn PLCs" button at the top of this page.

Temp sensor... something like a RED LION P16 SERIES Control? if so great because I have a few lying around and have wired temp sensor (1309007-44)

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Yes, that will certainly do the job - and a lot more besides! In fact, that Red Lion temperature will do your fan control job all by itself, or you can use its output as an input to your PLC (for learning purposes only).

...but I really would like to go the 1st route due to the fact I want to be able to speed up/slow down fan esp if I have the right gear at no cost.

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Now you are talking about variable speed control (instead of simply turning the fan ON or OFF), and you will need something else other than what you listed. Does your 12 volt 3 Amp fan have an AC motor or DC? In either case you will need a variable speed motor drive, or the equivalent.

Good to know! I just thought for some reason I'd need the "IN" module and a "OUT" module.

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Analog input modules are to allow sending varying processs analog inputs into your PLC. Analog outputs are to allow sending varying analog output signals to rxtrtnal field devices such as variable speed motor drives, control valves, SCR heater controllers, and similar devices.

nettogrisen said:

The ML1200 would be just as good. You would have to buy an additional 1762-IF4 analoge input card though as there are only digital inputs and outputs on the ML1200 it self.
You would also need a serial programming cable. I don't remember the partnumber though.
The positive side of choosing an Allen Bradley PLC instead of a DL is that they are more widely used so information is easier to get at. You can try the "Learn PLCs" button at the top of this page.

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I have a 1762-IF4 along with few other modules(1762-OB32T, 1762-OW16 and1769-IQ6XOW4) and a serial programming cable. Like I stated before I have access to a lot of components my major set back is not fully knowing the use for most of them... However, I've been checking out the "Learn PLCs" section thanks for the heads up!

Lancie1 said:

Yes, that will certainly do the job - and a lot more besides! In fact, that Red Lion temperature will do your fan control job all by itself, or you can use its output as an input to your PLC (for learning purposes only).

Now you are talking about variable speed control (instead of simply turning the fan ON or OFF), and you will need something else other than what you listed. Does your 12 volt 3 Amp fan have an AC motor or DC? In either case you will need a variable speed motor drive, or the equivalent.

Analog input modules are to allow sending varying processs analog inputs into your PLC. Analog outputs are to allow sending varying analog output signals to rxtrtnal field devices such as variable speed motor drives, control valves, SCR heater controllers, and similar devices.

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Good to know on the Red Lion, gonna research more on how to hook up and power on... I want to broaden my knowledge on what we do at work so I'll be fiddling with it a little as well!

As for the 12V 3a fan it is a DC brushless Model FFB1212EHE. So I am going to need to find a VSMD in order for the PLC to control the Speed based off environment? you mentioned equivalent.... what might be something equivalent? I definitely have access to some sort of VSMD but anything in particular as far as application based?

Also I'd like to say thanks for everyone who has commented! I find the best way for me to learn things is to explore and ask and since I'm full bore at work and we are understaffed I find my time being able to ask those at work very limited.

you mentioned equivalent.... what might be something equivalent?

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Because yours is a DC motor, then there are DC motor controllers that are less complex than the AC Variable Frequency Drives (VFDs). A DC motor controller only has to vary the voltage output - no frequency to worry about.

The positive side of choosing an Allen Bradley PLC instead of a DL is that they are more widely used so information is easier to get at.

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I could argue that point. In some companies the Automation Direct information would be eaiser to get at because that is all they use. I have had cases where I chose the Automation Direct brand because I needed prices and parts right away, so I clicked on http://www.automationdirect.com/ then selected the PLC and other parts for the prices shown on the screen, ordered what I needed, downloaded the user manuals, wrote the program, and finished the job in one day. If I had used Allen Bradley, I would have been waiting a day or two on the local AB distributer to call me back.

Lancie1 said:

Because yours is a DC motor, then there are DC motor controllers that are less complex than the AC Variable Frequency Drives (VFDs). A DC motor controller only has to vary the voltage output - no frequency to worry about.

I could argue that point. In some companies the Automation Direct information would be eaiser to get at because that is all they use. I have had cases where I chose the Automation Direct brand because I needed prices and parts right away, so I clicked on http://www.automationdirect.com/ then selected the PLC and other parts for the prices shown on the screen, ordered what I needed, downloaded the user manuals, wrote the program, and finished the job in one day. If I had used Allen Bradley, I would have been waiting a day or two on the local AB distributer to call me back.

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Ok so vfd if runnin ac...I see that be the case at work just didnt realize why and now I do (all application at work are ac that have the vfd). So with dc my big question would be getting down to 12v 3a from the 24v psu/output...

Also I was able to get compete directsoft software so I can use either set up. And I do like the idea of running the koyo right now but am open to both.

So with dc my big question would be getting down to 12v 3a from the 24v psu/output...

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NO, that is not a valid question, simply because your PLC outputs do not have enough rated power to drive your 3 Amp fan motor in the first place. Your D2-16TD2-2 digital outputs are rated to handle only 0.1 Amps each.

You can control the fan by using the D2-16TD2-2 outputs to control an interposing relay with separate 12 VDC power supply, that has contacts rated to start your fan motor (5 or 10 amp contacts would work). That would only turn the fan on or off. If you want to control the speed, look for a small cheap DC variable speed controller, like the KB Electronics KBCC SCR circuit-board units, or similar. There are plenty of cheap 12 VDC motor controllers on Ebay, but you usually get what you pay for.

http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_DC_Drives.html
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/12v-dc-motor-speed-control

You can send an analog output signal to the DC motor drive to tell it how fast to run your 3 amp DC fan motor. Then you will not need the interposing relay.

Lancie1 said:

NO, that is not a valid question, simply because your PLC outputs do not have enough rated power to drive your 3 Amp fan motor in the first place. Your D2-16TD2-2 digital outputs are rated to handle only 0.1 Amps each.

You can control the fan by using the D2-16TD2-2 outputs to control an interposing relay with separate 12 VDC power supply, that has contacts rated to start your fan motor (5 or 10 amp contacts would work). That would only turn the fan on or off. If you want to control the speed, look for a small cheap DC variable speed controller, like the KB Electronics KBCC SCR circuit-board units, or similar. There are plenty of cheap 12 VDC motor controllers on Ebay, but you usually get what you pay for.

http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_DC_Drives.html
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/12v-dc-motor-speed-control

You can send an analog output signal to the DC motor drive to tell it how fast to run your 3 amp DC fan motor. Then you will not need the interposing relay.

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Thanks I'm waiting for few items to come in and will pick back up on this part of.

However, while I wait I thought I'd start tinkering around with the RED LION and after a few hours of messing around I finally got the temp to display. so this little guy will allow for fan to turn on and off and help with speed control?

However, while I wait I thought I'd start tinkering around with the RED LION and after a few hours of messing around I finally got the temp to display. so this little guy will allow for fan to turn on and off and help with speed control?

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The Red Lion P16 series, lik many other brands, have different capabilities depending on the specific part number. Part number T1610010 has only a relay output where T1620010 has a Solid State Relay (SSR) output that can be used for time-propotioning PID temperature control. Also, models P1641110 and P1641100 have an Analog Output signal that can be used to send a control signal to a PLC input (so that the PLC becomes the controller instead of the Red Lion). There are also accessory kits available. See the link below.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CEIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redlion.net%2FProducts%2FGroups%2FPanelMounted%2FT16%2FDocs%2F05019.pdf&ei=sTsLU_-rMYrIyAHPxoCYCQ&usg=AFQjCNGmsBrMMT_ppOwEQ83Qyg69j-FOBQ&bvm=bv.61725948,d.eW0

Don't "mess around" with this or any other control device. Instead, get a copy of the User Manual, read and study it until you understand the capabilities of the device and how to use it.

Lancie1 said:

The Red Lion P16 series, lik many other brands, have different capabilities depending on the specific part number. Part number T1610010 has only a relay output where T1620010 has a Solid State Relay (SSR) output that can be used for time-propotioning PID temperature control. Also, models P1641110 and P1641100 have an Analog Output signal that can be used to send a control signal to a PLC input (so that the PLC becomes the controller instead of the Red Lion). There are also accessory kits available. See the link below.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CEIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redlion.net%2FProducts%2FGroups%2FPanelMounted%2FT16%2FDocs%2F05019.pdf&ei=sTsLU_-rMYrIyAHPxoCYCQ&usg=AFQjCNGmsBrMMT_ppOwEQ83Qyg69j-FOBQ&bvm=bv.61725948,d.eW0

Don't "mess around" with this or any other control device. Instead, get a copy of the User Manual, read and study it until you understand the capabilities of the device and how to use it.

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I do have a copy of the manual and hence why I was messing around with it. But even the manual. I wouldn't of found or understood the hidden menu without it.