OT........110VAC 3 Phase......??

Read voltage between any 2 phases to see if it's 208. That's what everyone suspects. Report back, and we can go from there.

Ozone Machine


OZONE Machine


Motor/Pump plate


Control Panel


Wires 01, 02, and 03 are the three 110 feed lines and 04 goes to a panel neutral


Control Panel Circuit Breaker, the three wires on top are 01, 02, and 03 from previous picture


Panel feeding the 110


close up of panel


junction box


Machine outlet, white wire goes to a 250 Single Phase outlet Panel Neutral

I will get some reading and be back.......
Thanks,
Micheal

XtremeIN said:

There is no wiring diagram.

Click to expand...

Bummer!

XtremeIN said:

I know it is not being run off 208 3 phase because it was wired to 208 3 phase when it was first brought it in and it burned up several components that were rated 110.

Click to expand...

Micheal,

From your description this is quite curious. I think it might be helpful if you could also draw how the components that originaly burned up were connected to the mains. Another thing that might be helpful is to report on how the motor leads are connected in the pecker heads

edit: Also try to find out if the items burned up before a neutral wire was connected between the machine and the building pannel. You just posted pics as I was posting .Opps! I see that only a ground is connected and not the neutral also!!!! this might be the problem.

A picture is worth a thousand words.

First of all this thing looks brand new, they didn't supply a wiring diagram?

Secondly this is a 3 phase panel that I am assuming is 208V. I am not sure how you had it hooked up before when you burn't out components. The only thing I can think of is that someone hooked up one of the hot phases to the neutral in your control panel (the blue wire).

The only things I see wrong here are.

1. You should have a 3 pole breaker.

2. You can't just hook up cab tire into a panel, I am guessing you are just testing this thing.

3. You appeared to parallel off of existing circuits, that is against code and your panel appears to be full.

Yes the machine is brand new (bought new, we have had it over a year, only wired up for a few months and only run a few times) and no they did not provide a wiring diagram. We got a Manual, but it is in Spanish, I think, and it does not include a wiring diagram.
There are no markings on the Panel feeding the machine, but the transformer that feed the panel is: 45 KVA with a Primary 480(H), Secondary 208Y/120 (X). Reading voltage across 01 and 02 is 215, same for 02 to 03 and 01 to 03. From 01 or 02 or 03 to 04, panel netural, is 125. Hope this helps.
This I just found out....It was orginaly wired to a 250 3 phase which has a High Leg. I am guessing the High Leg took out the components.....
Micheal

edit...At this point I amtrying to get this machine to be sent out to be installed for further clinical testing. am I right in saying that it need a 200-250v 3 phase with panel netural connection......

OK, my turn to chime in. You do not have a 3 phase 120 vac machine. You have a 3 phase 208 v machine. The motor does not say 120, it says 200-230. My first thought is that you should stop what you are doing and get someone in there who is familiar with what is going on. You do not understand this and you should not be messing with it. That said, I will try to explain (as many others have) what is going on. You are feeding the machine with 3 phase 208 volts and NO neutral. You do NOT have 120 anywhere. You can not use the ground as a neutral.

There is a breaker tripped and the wire is disconnected. You will single phase all the motors. This is bad. Again, the way the machine is wire to the panel is dangerous. You should never leave the panel exposed doing this.

You need 4 wires and a ground. This should be the first thing that you do. Then, make sure your ground is a machine ground and protecting you. Then put in a 3 phase breaker and hook up all the wires. Then before you turn it on, draw a diagram on how it is wired and we can then help. Finally, call the manufacturer and get a wiring diagram.

I’ve never worked on ENGLISH machinery before - but if I’m reading the picture below correctly, then I’d guess that this thing is rated for 3 phase power - and can be connected (probably by setting jumpers, etc.) to run properly on EITHER 200 to 230 volts (a range) - OR on 346 to 400 volts (another range) ...








now as for your panel ...








I’d suggest that you take a voltage reading



from the BLACK to the RED ... and

from the BLACK to the WHITE ... and

from the RED to the WHITE ...



and please tell us what readings you get each time ...



and just for good measure ... take a voltage reading



from the BLACK to the GROUND ... and

from the WHITE to the GROUND ... and

from the RED to the GROUND ...



and please tell us what readings you get there also ...



obviously this is NOT going to stay installed the way we see in the pictures (and if it is, please don’t tell us so) ... I assume that you just want to nail down the proper connections to make sure it works - and that things will be neatened up and brought up to standards as soon as the system is proven worthy ...



one tip: have you looked under/inside the panel cover for a wiring diagram? ... some of the equipment that I used to work on (back when I actually had to work for a living) had the diagrams pasted inside the cover ... the installers would remove the cover and lay it aside - and then scratch their heads raw trying to figure out how to hook the darn thing up ... often they’d call me in to help - and all I had to do was turn the cover over for them ...

PS Edit ... looks like my distinguished colleague brucechase has come to most of the same conclusions that I had ... (posting the pictures slowed me down) ...

"There is a breaker tripped and the wire is disconnected. You will single phase all the motors. This is bad. Again, the way the machine is wire to the panel is dangerous. You should never leave the panel exposed doing this."

I know the Black wire is disconnected and that a breaker is tripped, this machine has not been run in several months. Both of those issues have been corrected and the machine runs fine. I also know the panel should not be open.....I DID NOT DO THIS, I am just trying to correct it!!!!! I will double check the panel for a wiring diagram. One reason I know very little about this machine was I did not order (spec) it and I was out of town when it was hooked up. From all the information I have gotten I feel I have it figured out. I also know I need a three pole breaker not three single breakers....again I did not do this. I need to figure out how it is supose to be wired so I can get the correct componets and tell the facility manager that it is to be installed in what type of service they need.
Thanks,
Micheal

any other questions or commets feel free to post....the more I hear them more I know the sooner I will have the issues corrected.......

I recommend that you purchase three single phase double breakers. These are breakers which contain two seperate cicuit breakers with two seperate breaker operators in a single housing. Then replace three consecutive single phase breakers which have single phase loads with these double breakers and move the single phase loads from three other consecutive breakers to these double breakers. This will free up three slots in your panel for you to install a three pole breaker for this machine.

Also, if this machine is deriving its control voltage from line-neutral I suggest you change this and install a control transformer to provide control voltage from a

... and the machine runs fine ... I need to figure out how it is supose to be wired so I can get the correct componets and tell the facility manager that it is to be installed in what type of service they need ...

Click to expand...

so ... it’s working fine WHERE IT IS right now (temporary location) - but it needs to be moved SOMEWHERE ELSE in the future? (permanent location) ...



if so, then you’re just trying to nail down WHAT YOU’VE ALREADY GOT? ... if so, how about those voltage readings? ... any chance of getting them posted? ...

XtremeIN said:

I know the Black wire is disconnected and that a breaker is tripped, this machine has not been run in several months. Both of those issues have been corrected and the machine runs fine. I also know the panel should not be open.....I DID NOT DO THIS, I am just trying to correct it!!!!!
.....
. I need to figure out how it is supose to be wired so I can get the correct componets and tell the facility manager that it is to be installed in what type of service they need.
Thanks,
Micheal

any other questions or commets feel free to post....the more I hear them more I know the sooner I will have the issues corrected.......

Click to expand...

Micheal, I would again suggest that you hire someone who is knowledgable about electrical installations to help you out. There is no shame in not knowing what to do, but there is shame if you do something that hurts someone.

What you have done is just given us little pieces of the puzzle and certain questions. What you need to do is determine the load on the panel you want to use to verify there is enough capacity, determine the available fault current to the panel and pick the proper breaker (in AIC rating not current), you then need to pick the proper size breaker to provide selective coordination. You need to properly size the wires for the load and verify the installation meets the local codes and at a minimum the NEC. If you are not familiar with the NEC, then hire someone. Also, you will need to do an arc flash study and properly select PPE needed to work on the system. Equipment needs to be labeled at to where they are fed from and proper clearance must be maintained during the installation process. There are other items that need to be considered, but this should get you started.

One final comment; in the last picture you posted, it shows the neutral wiring going off in some direction other than the phase conductors. This is a big NO-NO. These should be kept together and run though common holes in panels to prevent from generating a good amount of heat at the penetration. The neutral should come from the same supply source as the phase conductors. It looks as is you have a seperately derived neutral from another panel feed this panel. Please correct this immediately if that is the case.

Originally posted by XtremeIN (post #20):
edit...At this point I amtrying to get this machine to be sent out to be installed for further clinical testing. ...

Click to expand...

Granted, this looks ugly. The supply shouldn't have been done this way. But before we have XtremeIN redesign his facility electrical system keep in mind this machine won't be there when it is done. It is being sent out of his facility. This is a temporary installation. What he really needs to know he already knows. The machine required a 208-230 3-phase supply. The true installation requirement now shifts to whoever ultimately gets this machine.

Keith

The proper term is 208, 3 phase, 5 wire, 20 amp service.
Load at 208 is 4.9 amps, 1526 watts.
I agree that the burned components from a previous install were either caused by connection to a 240 source with "crazy leg" (one leg is 240 to neutral), or run with neutral floating.

For reference here is a picture of typical US 120/208 and 120/240 volt transformer secondaries.



The first shows 120/208 three phase. The transformer has a WYE secondary and 120V is derived between any leg and the neutral. The line-line voltage is 208V.

The second shows 120/240 three phase. The transformer has a Delta secondary with a center tap in one of the windings. 120 V can only be dervied between the center tap and the ends of the center tapped winding (B-N and C-N in the lower drawing). Nothing should ever be connected between A and N. The voltage between A and N is 208V. This is mainly found in commercial three phase services.

In the US for residential service and light commercial service only three wires (ref B,C,N in lower draiwing) are typically connected to the building - but some facilities do have three phase 240V service. In these cases it is very important that the plant electricians never connect 120V loads to the high leg.


Additionally, industrial facilities frequently have 480/277 from a WYE secondary like the one in the top of the picture. The 277 phase to neutral voltage is typcially used for lighting loads.



Edit: I noticed in the panel photographs above that the feed conductors are marked BLACK/RED/BLUE. IF (big assumption here) the panel was installed and inspected properly, then its likely (another bit assumption) that it is 208 three phase. If the service is 240 V then (again, assuming it was done by code) the high leg should be marked with ORANGE (Art. 110.15). Also, note that the ABC legs on the drawings are for reference only so don't assume that A is always the high leg.

Once again thanks for all the information. That is why I continue to read and post here......the knowledge is awsome!!!!! The volage reading were posted..... from line one (01 in the machine panel and black in the breaker)to line two (02, Red) is 215 VAC. The same voltage for line two to three (04, White) and line one to line three. Also the volage from all three lines to Panel Netural was 125 VAC. The electrical service will be run/installed by the facilitys contractor, we will just deliver the machine, install, setup and do a start up run.
Alric, yes the three legs in the panel are correctly color coded, our building is only 3 years old and was fully inspected.
Thanks,
Micheal