What is wrong with people?

I don't recall who, but somebody just recently posted (or re-posted) these links.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html
http://catb.org/%7Eesr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Different level of forum but very relevant. Reading this should be a prerequisite to joining any technical forum.
It's irritating but this 'give me' mentality is pervasive in all industries. "Give me the answer so I don't have to search, work, or (gasp)think."
I've been using this forum and others for many a moon...I found it while searching for a problem with a SLC...but have only resorted to posting a HELP ME once or twice. Because there are so many topics and answers already here.
Anyway...for all those here who dedicate so much time giving truely insightful, experienced, and well-meaning help...your answers have saved my A** many times at 1am.
Thank you

Ok here is my point on the difference between a Google search and a forum search. Since Doug has just used the keyword "flip=flop" I did a search on "flip-flop" and the number 1 result is this thread. Hardly relavent to learning how to use a flip-flop
http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/search.php?searchid=614637

If I do the same search of PLCS.net using Google my results are much better
http://www.google.com/search?q=plcs.net+flip-flop

First the tutorials are include, but even if you exclude them the first thread that comes up is much more one target
http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=14166

If the Google search was integrated into the forum the results would be much more relevant without the additional need for training on how to do a search

IMHO
Anyone who has the time to read this thread has the time to do an exhaustive search on multiple sites.

TWControls said:

Ok here is my point on the difference between a Google search and a forum search. Since Doug has just used the keyword "flip=flop" I did a search on "flip-flop" and the number 1 result is this thread. Hardly relavent to learning how to use a flip-flop
http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/search.php?searchid=614637

If I do the same search of PLCS.net using Google my results are much better
http://www.google.com/search?q=plcs.net+flip-flop

First the tutorials are include, but even if you exclude them the first thread that comes up is much more one target
http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=14166

If the Google search was integrated into the forum the results would be much more relevant without the additional need for training on how to do a search

Click to expand...

The main issue, I think, is that this site's default search is thread not titles. If you do a search for flip flop and change it to search titles then Terry's explicit post on that subject will come up first.

One concept that Terry Woods taught me is the "WAS BIT" which is something many use but never actually named. It is a simple concept but something that eludes many.

I created a similar post one time and Peter was one that shot it down. I have come to the foregone conclusion that many questions will always be repetitive, but over time those repettive questions will change.

Another conclusion of mine is that many may have learned ways to do something but there may be other ways that are more efficient and/or possibly easier to understand, this can apply even if what is being done is fairly simple and easy to understand. In other words people want to get an idea how other's think and/or approach things.

Maybe it is time to be more aggressive on the forum? I know Phil has a learn plc book but why not add to that and create some basic logic, not programs, but basic logic examples with titles that explain it, then offer them as needed and make searching easier.

As an example, there may be different ways to develop a sequence depending on the PLC and/or devices. Title a thread "Sequence, Sequencer, Sequencing, then add different ways it could be done i.e. drum, timer, plc's and different brands with different instructions.

BIT SHIFT is another, different brands of plc's have differences in how they work. Title a thread BIT SHIFT (and other applicable terms) then someone explain how it works with their favorite brand. Maybe add ideas when it the instruction could or would be used.

IT is just a thought, there are numerous complicated things like PID explained in detail but many, like me, could use help with the simple things.

Hey! You are back!

Speaking of search, the only type of post that annoys me these days are the same ole student questions. It annoys me that the instructors never told them not to ask the internet to do the homework and it annoys me that the student don't know how to use the search function, which I consider common curtesy on every online forums.

On one of the website I frequent, the 2nd post below the OP is a "Quick Summary" which is basically a wiki post that anyone can edit. This will solve a lot of the issues.

1 Why does everyone think they are the first to see a problem?

To think that one is the first to come across a problem is to think they are trail blazing in some area. This is rarely the case.

2 Why can't people search this forum to find the wisdom, knowledge and experience that it already contains?

To think that the information is not here already is kind of insulting. It is like saying that for the last 8 years we have done nothing. How old is this forum? It must be around 8 years. I know that it has been through many revisions.

I know enough to know that nothing I do in motion control hasn't been done before. I also know that I can find the information I need in books. I actually find little on the internet that is of much use but there have been some gems among the rocks.

Click to expand...

Peter,
No offense meant here. But reading your initial post I have to ask, why does the sight exist? If what you are stating is that every single problem that could ever occur has already happpened,and been discussed on this forum,why not shut the forum down and just archive the past topics somewhere? What if the answer to the persons question is in the very first post ever in this forum? Should that person spend two weeks sorting through posts to find his answer? Sometimes that is just not posssible.I know what you are saying though. The continual "taffic light" questions may get a little old.

ctilley said:

Peter,
No offense meant here.

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None taken. I know I am tweaking some people's nose when I started this post but I also know that the those that have been here awhile would agree. Some have even admitted they take the easy path because it exist. I think some of the suggestions on how to search have been good. I like to put tags in my posts if I know I will refer to them again. Advanced Control is one. tidbits is another.

I have a question for you. With your total contribution of 17 posts, how many times have you answered the same question? You don't need to answer that because I read all 17 of your posts. You are a newcomer to this site. Some of us have been here for years and have seen same thing over and over and over again. I have gotten to the point where I sit back now and hope other can answer the questions. What gets me is that allot of them don't just post links to prior threads.

Stick around for a few years and then visit this thread again. I think you will see things differently.

But reading your initial post I have to ask, why does the sight exist?

Click to expand...

Obviously it is a source of information. It shouldn't be a source of redundant information.

If what you are stating is that every single problem that could ever occur has already happpened,and been discussed on this forum,why not shut the forum down and just archive the past topics somewhere?

Click to expand...

New products generate new problems but there are seldom new applications.

What if the answer to the persons question is in the very first post ever in this forum? Should that person spend two weeks sorting through posts to find his answer?

Click to expand...

It doesn't take two weeks to do a search.

Sometimes that is just not posssible.I know what you are saying though. The continual "taffic light" questions may get a little old.

Click to expand...

Yes, the idea is to add NEW information and not rehash old information.

Peter, I agree with you. I can't say I feel it, because I didn't answer too many posts. But I can say, that, been here for some time, that it is also annoying to read and see that the same o questions everytime, knowing that it had been posted. And sometimes, with less than a month apart.

As I mentioned I made a similar post: http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=28786

Just a thought, maybe have a wiki area that could grow and develop into a useful resource.
Peter, this would be the ideal way to present the info on encoders, you suggest in another thread.

Geoff

Peter,

These are merely my observations of what occurs here.

1. It appears that the majority of questions relate to either Allen Bradley or Siemens products.

I am not familiar with how their products work, but with the number of posts, I believe it to be a combination of installed products (popularity) and access to manufacturer support (which includes documentation, distribution and how user friendly the products are) that contribute to the number of posts for these two manufacturers.

I have not reviewed their documentation, so, I may be blowing smoke...one would have to think that many of these questions could be answered by the documentation provided in the manual. I believe this to be an industry wide dilemma, whereby we are in a world of instant everything. When posting, many might believe that they will receive the answer they are looking for, from another person's knowledge base quicker than taking the time to expand their own knowledge base by researching their problem. Doing a search on this forum would constitute research and time invested.

We also have customers that will call us with questions that can be answered by simply reading the manual. We continue to answer the same questions, because that is customer support....They ask, we answer...lol.


2. Every semester you get a new group of students looking for help, with the same curriculum...therefore the same questions.

It had been suggested at one time to create an archive section with threads related to common questions asked by students. I know this would take time on Phil's part to actually set up. One would have to ask, if it were to be done, would it be used? As mentioned above, "instant everything".


3. It had be mentioned in a previous post that the search function doesn't always produce the most favorable results. I have used the search function only a handful of times, therefore, I don't believe I can comment as to it's effectiveness.


You had also mentioned that with new products, come new problems. Even with existing products that have been revised, new problems arise. I believe this relates to point one - the documentation provided by the manufacturer and access to their support system.

One would have to ask, are the amount of questions related to specific products related to documentation, accessibility to support or a quick fix (or maybe something else). (Casey...I smell a poll - Why do you post your question on the forum?)

The longer you are involved with anything...including life, you will see cycles, repetition and trends. It appears that on this forum, the time is much more condensed because of what is stated above.

Again, just merely one person's observations.

God Bless,

You are right Stephen, it is a cycle - or maybe more of a spiral.
But, the ones asking for a solution to a traffic light problem today are maybe the ones 'answering' questions in a year or two.

No matter how tedious some questions may seem, it is up to the elders to leave the place in much the same state they found it!

Which one is more insulting - the same old questions repeating themselves , or someone who plain and simply will not listen to good sense and asks a question that they apparently already know the answer to ?

I know which one winds me up first .....

Goody said:

You are right Stephen, it is a cycle - or maybe more of a spiral.
But, the ones asking for a solution to a traffic light problem today are maybe the ones 'answering' questions in a year or two.
...

Click to expand...

I participate in many online forums and one thing I learned over the years is that the same people who are unable to read the sticky/read the FAQ/Search/Asking Us to Do their homework are the same one who never contributes.

Knowledge will change over time, character rarely does.

manmeetvirdi in part said:

Hi
Is www.plcs.net is going to become a paid site??
Is Peter's remarks is a hint towards this??

Click to expand...

I really wanted to jump on this earlier and have some fun, but no sense in agitating Phil.

Phil is a great guy, and puts a lot of time, effort, and per$onal re$ources into this site.

Those newcomers who need to learn more about PLC's can click on the tutorial.

Those desiring to learn more should get "The Book", or better yet, the DVD's!

Anyone, new or old, can always use a T-Shirt, or the ever popular Polo Shirt, and help support the site in that way.

The PLCS.net store is always open.

Those who I can convince that this is now a pay site, please insert a crisp new $5.00 bill into the louvers of their monitor and email me the cash!