gbradley
Lifetime Supporting Member
$379 Complete PLC Training Course HELP
- Thread starter StoneNewB
- Start date
Ron Beaufort
Lifetime Supporting Member
Greetings to all ...
(1) usually I don't comment in "training" threads like this one – but I've gotten several emails recently asking me put in my two cents worth ... so for what it’s worth – here it is …
(2) preview: this isn't really "advertising" – since my main objective is to talk people OUT of taking my classes ...
(3) first of all, I appreciate the kind compliments – (and I really don't mind any of the other comments) ...
(4) going further, I honestly do NOT recommend any of my "boot camp" classes to folks that are in the original poster's situation ...
(5) if you're really and truly determined to become a "PLC programmer" – then my advice is to get yourself a "training" setup – and get to work ...
(6) this might sound strange coming from a guy who makes a living by selling PLC training – but here is my personal philosophy on the subject:
(7)
(8) but ... (here's the catch) ...
(9) that's like saying that anyone who is capable of being TAUGHT to be a piano player – is also capable of "figuring THAT out" on their own too ...
(10) to continue the analogy:
(11) of course you'd HAVE to have access to a piano to practice on ... no amount of reading, or watching videos is going to completely fill the bill ... and in the same sense, you won't be able to completely learn PLC programming by just "reading" or "watching" either ...
(12) the big question usually comes down to this: "How long will it take before I can start making MONEY as a programmer?" ...
(13) now this is my own honest personal opinion (which I have been ASKED to provide) – based on about 25 years in the trade – and I'm sure that others will have different opinions – but for what it's worth – I'd say that for MOST people, at least two or three years would probably be required to make them "employable" ... now that's working at it pretty regularly (nights and weekends) – and still keeping up with SOME amount of their family life – and throwing the TV set completely out the window ... (I haven't had a TV set in my house in over eight years now) ...
(14) anyway ... getting back to the OP's original line of questioning ...
(15) I personally have no "axe to grind" here, simply because I no longer offer "programming" courses at all ... my "personal trainer" – "business manager" – "resident angel" - "precious wife" - put the kibosh on that particular line of work about two years ago ... her main reason was the amount of stress and strain that it put on me – and frankly, the money just wasn't "right" ...
(16) now to tell the truth, I really did enjoy teaching "programming" – but each class would take me about two to three weeks of (part time) preparation – BEFORE the student even arrived ... and (even worse from a busine$$ standpoint) I would only allow ONE student in the class at a time ... (once in awhile I'd make a rare exception and allow two – but only if they both worked for the same company – and were both working on the same project) ...
(17) while I definitely appreciate the recommendations in this thread that have been made in my behalf, I really need to say that lately I've been blessed to the point that I'm now having to turn down about half of the work that comes my way ... and as I've said, "programming" classes was one of the first things to be cut ...
(18) instead, almost all of my students nowadays come from companies (some large – some small) who desperately need training in PLC "troubleshooting" skills for their maintenance technicians ...
(19) the OP asked the following honest question about my classes: "Is the 5 days of learning worth 2300 bucks?"
(20) well, actually the price (currently $2,390) is closer to 2400 bucks – but the point is the same ... let me answer the question the same way that most of my "maintenance manager" customers put it ...
(21)
(22) so – for an EMPLOYER with those types of concerns, I can assure you that the price of the course is NOT a big issue ... instead, the biggest concern is the "time-away-from-the-job" ... specifically, how many "lost" days are going to be required to get the crew "trained up" and ready to hit the ground running? ...
(23) and that's where the "boot camp" approach comes in ... basically, let's get in – let's get it done – and let's get back to the plant and go to work ...
(24) so ...
(25) we start at 8:00 o'clock in the morning (traffic permitting) – and "officially" we go full-throttle until 5:00 o'clock in the evening ... but ... often we keep right on trucking until 7:30 or 8:00 PM (wife permitting) ...
(26) we only have one "scheduled" break each day (for lunch) – and many students choose to bring a sandwich and work right on through non-stop ...
(27) the worst scenario is covering the ControlLogix platform – especially for students who don't have the luxury of focusing on just Ladder Logic alone ... many of my students nowadays also need skills in troubleshooting Structured Text, Function Block Diagrams, Sequential Function Charts, Equipment Phases, Motion Control, PID/PIDE, various networks, and the list goes on ...
(28) so for someone who's 68 (almost 69) years old – these twelve and thirteen hour workdays are starting to take their toll ... my wife and my doctor are conspiring together – but as long as my checkups remain acceptable, then I get to "party on" - doing the work that I truly enjoy ... still – they've cut me back to working just a maximum of two weeks on – and then taking at least two weeks off ... (and that's one of the main reasons why I'm forced to turn down about 50% of the work that I get offered) ...
(29) continued in the next post ...
(1) usually I don't comment in "training" threads like this one – but I've gotten several emails recently asking me put in my two cents worth ... so for what it’s worth – here it is …
(2) preview: this isn't really "advertising" – since my main objective is to talk people OUT of taking my classes ...
(3) first of all, I appreciate the kind compliments – (and I really don't mind any of the other comments) ...
(4) going further, I honestly do NOT recommend any of my "boot camp" classes to folks that are in the original poster's situation ...
(5) if you're really and truly determined to become a "PLC programmer" – then my advice is to get yourself a "training" setup – and get to work ...
(6) this might sound strange coming from a guy who makes a living by selling PLC training – but here is my personal philosophy on the subject:
(7)
(8) but ... (here's the catch) ...
(9) that's like saying that anyone who is capable of being TAUGHT to be a piano player – is also capable of "figuring THAT out" on their own too ...
(10) to continue the analogy:
(11) of course you'd HAVE to have access to a piano to practice on ... no amount of reading, or watching videos is going to completely fill the bill ... and in the same sense, you won't be able to completely learn PLC programming by just "reading" or "watching" either ...
(12) the big question usually comes down to this: "How long will it take before I can start making MONEY as a programmer?" ...
(13) now this is my own honest personal opinion (which I have been ASKED to provide) – based on about 25 years in the trade – and I'm sure that others will have different opinions – but for what it's worth – I'd say that for MOST people, at least two or three years would probably be required to make them "employable" ... now that's working at it pretty regularly (nights and weekends) – and still keeping up with SOME amount of their family life – and throwing the TV set completely out the window ... (I haven't had a TV set in my house in over eight years now) ...
(14) anyway ... getting back to the OP's original line of questioning ...
(15) I personally have no "axe to grind" here, simply because I no longer offer "programming" courses at all ... my "personal trainer" – "business manager" – "resident angel" - "precious wife" - put the kibosh on that particular line of work about two years ago ... her main reason was the amount of stress and strain that it put on me – and frankly, the money just wasn't "right" ...
(16) now to tell the truth, I really did enjoy teaching "programming" – but each class would take me about two to three weeks of (part time) preparation – BEFORE the student even arrived ... and (even worse from a busine$$ standpoint) I would only allow ONE student in the class at a time ... (once in awhile I'd make a rare exception and allow two – but only if they both worked for the same company – and were both working on the same project) ...
(17) while I definitely appreciate the recommendations in this thread that have been made in my behalf, I really need to say that lately I've been blessed to the point that I'm now having to turn down about half of the work that comes my way ... and as I've said, "programming" classes was one of the first things to be cut ...
(18) instead, almost all of my students nowadays come from companies (some large – some small) who desperately need training in PLC "troubleshooting" skills for their maintenance technicians ...
(19) the OP asked the following honest question about my classes: "Is the 5 days of learning worth 2300 bucks?"
(20) well, actually the price (currently $2,390) is closer to 2400 bucks – but the point is the same ... let me answer the question the same way that most of my "maintenance manager" customers put it ...
(21)
(22) so – for an EMPLOYER with those types of concerns, I can assure you that the price of the course is NOT a big issue ... instead, the biggest concern is the "time-away-from-the-job" ... specifically, how many "lost" days are going to be required to get the crew "trained up" and ready to hit the ground running? ...
(23) and that's where the "boot camp" approach comes in ... basically, let's get in – let's get it done – and let's get back to the plant and go to work ...
(24) so ...
(25) we start at 8:00 o'clock in the morning (traffic permitting) – and "officially" we go full-throttle until 5:00 o'clock in the evening ... but ... often we keep right on trucking until 7:30 or 8:00 PM (wife permitting) ...
(26) we only have one "scheduled" break each day (for lunch) – and many students choose to bring a sandwich and work right on through non-stop ...
(27) the worst scenario is covering the ControlLogix platform – especially for students who don't have the luxury of focusing on just Ladder Logic alone ... many of my students nowadays also need skills in troubleshooting Structured Text, Function Block Diagrams, Sequential Function Charts, Equipment Phases, Motion Control, PID/PIDE, various networks, and the list goes on ...
(28) so for someone who's 68 (almost 69) years old – these twelve and thirteen hour workdays are starting to take their toll ... my wife and my doctor are conspiring together – but as long as my checkups remain acceptable, then I get to "party on" - doing the work that I truly enjoy ... still – they've cut me back to working just a maximum of two weeks on – and then taking at least two weeks off ... (and that's one of the main reasons why I'm forced to turn down about 50% of the work that I get offered) ...
(29) continued in the next post ...
Last edited:
Ron Beaufort
Lifetime Supporting Member
(30) continued from the previous post ....
(31) the front page of my website clearly gives the following warning:
(32)
(33) and beside that fair warning, I personally talk with each and every student before they can be registered – and I make every effort to let them know what's going to be involved in taking a "boot camp" style class ...
(34) the "worker types" LOVE it ... but ... once or maybe twice a year, someone will somehow slip in under my radar – with the idea that a week of training should be the same thing as a week of vacation from work ... in those cases, we just cancel the bill – and we send the guy home early ... the rest of us have work to do ...
(35) now here's my point in telling you all of that ...
(36) everything that I've been describing is what's involved in learning how to "READ" and troubleshoot a system that has already been programmed ...
(37) stop and think ...
(38) how can anybody realistically imagine that a five-day course (even at a "boot camp" pace) could possibly prepare them to "WRITE" and debug a program (from scratch) for a new system? ...
(39) (get serious) ...
(40) now PLEASE – PLEASE – do not misunderstand me ... I am NOT (I repeat NOT) trying to discourage anyone from trying to become a PLC programmer – if that's the path that they truly want to pursue ... in fact, I have already said that it CAN be done – even without a class from me – or from anyone else ...
(41) but ...
(42) the dose of "reality" that I'm trying to inject into the conversation here, is that becoming a programmer is invariably going to take a LOT more time – and a LOT more effort – than most people can possibly imagine ... and personally, I don't think that ANY five-day course is going to completely fill the bill ...
(43) back when I was still offering "programming" classes - one problem that I constantly had to deal with was students who would arrive on my doorstep still convinced that: "green on the screen means true" ... and that an XIC "examines a switch to see if it's on" ... and that an OTE "controls an output" ... and that "a green rung represents power-flow" ... and all of the other assorted nonsense and popular misconceptions that we knock out before lunchtime on Monday ...
(44) an analogy: a "programming" student doesn't even know his ABC's – he can't read "Dick, Jane, and Their Dog Spot" - but yet he still fully expects me to teach him how to write "War and Peace" during a five-day class ...
(45) once again, my personal advice to the OP (and to anyone else with the same "I want to be a programmer" goal) is that you invest your money in some hardware – and some software – and start paying your dues ... YES, a set of CDs might indeed be helpful ... YES, some videos might indeed be helpful ... YES, a training course might indeed be helpful ... YES, the forum might indeed be helpful ...
(46) but ...
(47) in the final analysis, I personally have never seen ANYONE become a decent "programmer" without investing a LOT of time - and a LOT of effort - into genuine old-fashioned hands-on experimentation ... (I said "NEVER" folks - and I've been around the block a few times) ...
(48) going further – with some free friendly advice ...
(49) now before you jump into the deep end of the pool, I'd definitely recommend that you first check in your local area and see what specific type of PLCs are the most popular ... (after all, you DO want to be able to $ell your skills, right?) ... now a lot of folks will tell you that learning ONE type (ANY type) of PLC will be helpful – and they're certainly entitled to their opinions ...
(50) but ...
(51) IF (that's a big IF) all PLCs really were indeed so "similar" – then I wouldn't have needed to invest in THREE separate lab setups – and offer THREE separate classes – to cover essentially the same material for:
(52) the PLC-5 platform – and RSLogix5 software ...
(53) the SLC-500 platform – and RSLogix500 software ... and
(54) the ControlLogix platform – and RSLogix5000 software...
(55) and keep in mind that those three platforms (and three separate software packages) are all for the SAME brand – Allen-Bradley ...
(56) here's what my customers say on that particular subject:
(57)
(58) now if you apply that same line of reasoning to learning "programming" skills – it would seem to make sense that you should focus on the brands and types of PLCs that would give you the best chance of landing a job in your local market ...
(59) so ...
(60) where do we go from here? ... I've already said that I do NOT recommend that someone in the OP's situation sign up for one of my classes ... but quite frequently signing up for a PLC course at a local tech school or community college might be helpful ... just make sure that the school has some RELEVANT hardware – and software – before you enroll ... even if the course itself turns out to be JUNK – you might still want to sign up just for the opportunity of getting your hands on the school's hardware and software for a sixteen-week semester ... ESPECIALLY if you'd be allowed to spend some "extra" time working "on your own" with the lab equipment ... (consider anything useful that you might learn from the instructor to be "gravy") ...
(61) note: keep a low profile if you're going to try doing this "extra" time idea ... I worked for about eight years as a "lab technician" – and the school's management told me that I had to quit allowing students into the lab except during their officially scheduled class times ... the reason: if they tripped, or got otherwise hurt, then their lawyers might get involved - and the school's insurance might not be obligated to pay off the claim ...
(62) again – I do NOT want to be misunderstood here ... there are SOME tech school and community college instructors out there (bless their hearts) who really do CARE about the quality of their classes ... in fact, I get a fairly steady stream of them signing up (as students) to take my boot camp classes ... but ... in many (most?) cases, the PLC instructor has little (if any) personal knowledge about the subject matter – other than what he can glean by reading the same text books that the students have ...
(63) I hope that this has been helpful – but frankly for someone in the OP's stated goals – and in his particular situation - I do NOT recommend signing up for one of my courses ... these are 100% guaranteed to be effective in teaching "troubleshooting" skills – but frankly there's just TOO MUCH material – in TOO SHORT a timeframe – to realistically expect a person to walk out on Friday afternoon as a qualified (and employable) "programmer" ...
(64) but I do sincerely appreciate the kind referrals... thank you to all who took the time to recommend my services ...
(31) the front page of my website clearly gives the following warning:
(32)
(33) and beside that fair warning, I personally talk with each and every student before they can be registered – and I make every effort to let them know what's going to be involved in taking a "boot camp" style class ...
(34) the "worker types" LOVE it ... but ... once or maybe twice a year, someone will somehow slip in under my radar – with the idea that a week of training should be the same thing as a week of vacation from work ... in those cases, we just cancel the bill – and we send the guy home early ... the rest of us have work to do ...
(35) now here's my point in telling you all of that ...
(36) everything that I've been describing is what's involved in learning how to "READ" and troubleshoot a system that has already been programmed ...
(37) stop and think ...
(38) how can anybody realistically imagine that a five-day course (even at a "boot camp" pace) could possibly prepare them to "WRITE" and debug a program (from scratch) for a new system? ...
(39) (get serious) ...
(40) now PLEASE – PLEASE – do not misunderstand me ... I am NOT (I repeat NOT) trying to discourage anyone from trying to become a PLC programmer – if that's the path that they truly want to pursue ... in fact, I have already said that it CAN be done – even without a class from me – or from anyone else ...
(41) but ...
(42) the dose of "reality" that I'm trying to inject into the conversation here, is that becoming a programmer is invariably going to take a LOT more time – and a LOT more effort – than most people can possibly imagine ... and personally, I don't think that ANY five-day course is going to completely fill the bill ...
(43) back when I was still offering "programming" classes - one problem that I constantly had to deal with was students who would arrive on my doorstep still convinced that: "green on the screen means true" ... and that an XIC "examines a switch to see if it's on" ... and that an OTE "controls an output" ... and that "a green rung represents power-flow" ... and all of the other assorted nonsense and popular misconceptions that we knock out before lunchtime on Monday ...
(44) an analogy: a "programming" student doesn't even know his ABC's – he can't read "Dick, Jane, and Their Dog Spot" - but yet he still fully expects me to teach him how to write "War and Peace" during a five-day class ...
(45) once again, my personal advice to the OP (and to anyone else with the same "I want to be a programmer" goal) is that you invest your money in some hardware – and some software – and start paying your dues ... YES, a set of CDs might indeed be helpful ... YES, some videos might indeed be helpful ... YES, a training course might indeed be helpful ... YES, the forum might indeed be helpful ...
(46) but ...
(47) in the final analysis, I personally have never seen ANYONE become a decent "programmer" without investing a LOT of time - and a LOT of effort - into genuine old-fashioned hands-on experimentation ... (I said "NEVER" folks - and I've been around the block a few times) ...
(48) going further – with some free friendly advice ...
(49) now before you jump into the deep end of the pool, I'd definitely recommend that you first check in your local area and see what specific type of PLCs are the most popular ... (after all, you DO want to be able to $ell your skills, right?) ... now a lot of folks will tell you that learning ONE type (ANY type) of PLC will be helpful – and they're certainly entitled to their opinions ...
(50) but ...
(51) IF (that's a big IF) all PLCs really were indeed so "similar" – then I wouldn't have needed to invest in THREE separate lab setups – and offer THREE separate classes – to cover essentially the same material for:
(52) the PLC-5 platform – and RSLogix5 software ...
(53) the SLC-500 platform – and RSLogix500 software ... and
(54) the ControlLogix platform – and RSLogix5000 software...
(55) and keep in mind that those three platforms (and three separate software packages) are all for the SAME brand – Allen-Bradley ...
(56) here's what my customers say on that particular subject:
(57)
(58) now if you apply that same line of reasoning to learning "programming" skills – it would seem to make sense that you should focus on the brands and types of PLCs that would give you the best chance of landing a job in your local market ...
(59) so ...
(60) where do we go from here? ... I've already said that I do NOT recommend that someone in the OP's situation sign up for one of my classes ... but quite frequently signing up for a PLC course at a local tech school or community college might be helpful ... just make sure that the school has some RELEVANT hardware – and software – before you enroll ... even if the course itself turns out to be JUNK – you might still want to sign up just for the opportunity of getting your hands on the school's hardware and software for a sixteen-week semester ... ESPECIALLY if you'd be allowed to spend some "extra" time working "on your own" with the lab equipment ... (consider anything useful that you might learn from the instructor to be "gravy") ...
(61) note: keep a low profile if you're going to try doing this "extra" time idea ... I worked for about eight years as a "lab technician" – and the school's management told me that I had to quit allowing students into the lab except during their officially scheduled class times ... the reason: if they tripped, or got otherwise hurt, then their lawyers might get involved - and the school's insurance might not be obligated to pay off the claim ...
(62) again – I do NOT want to be misunderstood here ... there are SOME tech school and community college instructors out there (bless their hearts) who really do CARE about the quality of their classes ... in fact, I get a fairly steady stream of them signing up (as students) to take my boot camp classes ... but ... in many (most?) cases, the PLC instructor has little (if any) personal knowledge about the subject matter – other than what he can glean by reading the same text books that the students have ...
(63) I hope that this has been helpful – but frankly for someone in the OP's stated goals – and in his particular situation - I do NOT recommend signing up for one of my courses ... these are 100% guaranteed to be effective in teaching "troubleshooting" skills – but frankly there's just TOO MUCH material – in TOO SHORT a timeframe – to realistically expect a person to walk out on Friday afternoon as a qualified (and employable) "programmer" ...
(64) but I do sincerely appreciate the kind referrals... thank you to all who took the time to recommend my services ...
Last edited:
First of all Welcome StoneNewB
Hope you are ready for some long nights
There is probably not more I can add that Beaufort didn't cover in his post, but here I go anyway.
I have pretty much learn everything i know about PLC programming on my own, I have never attended any classes and probably never will (never have the time). I started with a used SLC/505 with some I/O and a Basic serial module (Let's not get into that one) But it was enough to get me started and keep me up at night and I got all the basic instructions in place and the basic concept of using and programming a PLC, for the first year I had to do this after hours, maybe it's the long way around, but you will soon know if you are on the right path, It's a great feeling when you fill your head up whit a ton of information and suddenly it all fall's into place.
There is something Beaufort mentioned in his post and that is important and that is practical experience, not only with the program but also the mechanics you wan't to control, the better you understand the mechanical and physical part of the project the better programmer you will be.
Good luck with you logix
Hope you are ready for some long nights
There is probably not more I can add that Beaufort didn't cover in his post, but here I go anyway.
I have pretty much learn everything i know about PLC programming on my own, I have never attended any classes and probably never will (never have the time). I started with a used SLC/505 with some I/O and a Basic serial module (Let's not get into that one) But it was enough to get me started and keep me up at night
and I got all the basic instructions in place and the basic concept of using and programming a PLC, for the first year I had to do this after hours, maybe it's the long way around, but you will soon know if you are on the right path, It's a great feeling when you fill your head up whit a ton of information and suddenly it all fall's into place.There is something Beaufort mentioned in his post and that is important and that is practical experience, not only with the program but also the mechanics you wan't to control, the better you understand the mechanical and physical part of the project the better programmer you will be.
Good luck with you logix
CapinWinky
Member
Ha! I didn't really intend to break my train of thought with a mini-sales pitch; I was trying to give the guy a link to a decent PLC in his $380 budget and was legitimately shocked by how cheaply they are selling this thing. It would be like finding an L7 ControlLogix for $350, posting about it, then someone saying they wouldn't trusts anything with a USB B connector.
Here is a more reasonably priced unit, also from Evergreen Solar
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gbradley
Lifetime Supporting Member
You're right
I was being snarky.
I trust you when you say that both of the units are super good deals.
They are probably not the best learning platform for a newbie IMNSHO.
Gcolbert
Member
I took a online class at plctechnician.com. This was a great base for me. If they are using RSlogix 5000 have someone convert and download into Emulate 5000 for you to practice forcing etc.
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