comparing Allen-Bradley to Omron ...

[Ron Beaufort]

foreword:

please do NOT turn this into a "bash" – or an "I like this brand better" thread ... I really need nuts-and-bolts information here – not opinions on which brand to buy ...

I have a new customer who is interested in training for Omron:

960 E/S CJ1G-CPU43H - and also
CPM 2A 60C systems – using the
CX one ver.4.23 software package ...

I've explained that I only deal with Allen-Bradley PLCs – but this particular customer is interested not only the training "material" – but also in the training "approach" ... his major objective is to develop something along the lines of my "boot camp" training methods - and then apply that to an "in house" training program for his troubleshooting technicians ...

specifically, this project will NOT involve "programming" skills at all – but instead will focus on interpreting and understanding the customer's existing Omron programs in order to troubleshoot malfunctioning systems ...

so here's my question for the forum:

which Allen-Bradley platform comes closest to the Omron 960 E/S CJ1G-CPU43H - and also CPM 2A 60C systems – and the CX one ver.4.23 software? ... we're certainly not looking for a perfect match – and we realize that we might not even be able to come close ... but ... it only makes sense to choose the "best fit" before we dive into this project ... I'm hopeful that there are some forum members who are familiar with both PLC brands and would be willing to offer some advice ...

DISCLAIMER: I personally have ZERO experience with any Omron products ...

here are the three Allen-Bradley systems that I normally deal with:

(1) ControlLogix / CompactLogix systems – using RSLogix5000 software ...

(2) PLC-5 systems – using RSLogix5 software ...

(3) SLC-500 / MicroLogix systems – using RSLogix500 software ...

so ... can any forum members please offer some friendly advice on which Allen-Bradley system would be the "best fit" for someone who will ultimately be dealing with the Omron systems and software I've mentioned? ...

thank you for your attention ...

 

[gtsuport]

Ron,
Here are my .02 worth. Been working with Omron products for several years.

CJ1G-CPU43H is a 20kstep cpu. This is a product with modular I/O. This would be along the lines of the CompactLogix 1769-L32C.

CPM2A-60Cxx is a "shoebox" style product similar to the MicroLogix product line. CPM2A is expandable with dedicated I/O modules. Not really sure of exact cross.

The instruction sets are similar, in that the CJ1 line will be compatible with the entire instruction set of the CPM2A.
Note that the CJ1 family is being replaced by the CJ2 product line.

CX-One is Omron's programming suite. It includes software for programming plc's and hmi products, networking, drives, motion, etc. Version 4 is the most up to date. The plc programming tool is CX-Programmer and will program both of the products you have mentioned.

I hope this is helpful. Please let me know if you have any questions.

 

[Ron Beaufort]

thank you, gtsuport ...

this is exactly the type of information that I'm looking for ...

could you also answer this for me please:

does the CJ1G-CPU43H cpu use a SYNCHRONOUS or an ASYNCHRONOUS scanning sequence? ... specifically, is the ladder logic scan "tied to/synchronized with" the transfer of Input/Output information?

the CompactLogix 1769-L32C that you mentioned uses ASYNCHRONOUS – and so (based on that) I'd recommend the ControlLogix / CompactLogix class for my student ... on the other hand, if the CJ1G-CPU43H cpu's scan is SYNCHRONOUS, then maybe the SLC-500 class would be more beneficial ...

thank you again for your input ...

 

[gtsuport]

Ron,
Most Omron products use a synchronous scan. There are some very old products that did not, but both CJ1 and CPM2A products are synchronous.

I might mention that typically one of the most difficult concepts for students to grasp is the Memory Map. Omron uses a fixed data table concept. There will be some differences in the Memory Map between the CJ1 and CPM2 products, but there are many similarities. The Omron manual #W339 details the memory map for the CJ1, manual # W353 details all of the CPM products including the CPM2A.

Again, I hope this is the information you are looking for. Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.

 

[mendonsy]

If you want to look through those manuals they are available as PDF files from here:
http://industrial.omron.us/dlc/browse.do?path=IAB%2FProducts%2FAutomation+Systems%2FPLCs%2FModular+PLC+Series

 

[gtsuport]

Ron,
It appears the US website is not responding for manual requests, and it is not indexed by manual number. Links below are from the Omron European website.

W353 manual link for the CPM2A:
http://downloads.industrial.omron.e...es/CPM1A/W353/W353-E1-06+CPM_+ProgrManual.pdf

W339 manual link for the CJ1G:
http://downloads.industrial.omron.e...339/W339-E1-15A+CS-Series+OperationManual.pdf

mendonsy, thanks for providing the link information. Guessing they are still updating the US website.

 

[BobB]

Ron, I am an Omron guy and will get back to you when I finish work for the day.
Few concepts to get hold of.

 

[DamianInRochester]

Some random thoughts on it:

CXOne from my perspective lands somewhere inbetween RSLogix500 and RSLogix5000 in terms of the development.

Omron follows the traditional RSLogix500 format of making you tie all your output instructions to the right rail. No series coils or series math instructions or any such thing.

Omron has P and N contact instructions that obviously have some subtle differences in how they are processed compared to ONS and OSR etc.

Instead of S and R instruction you have KEEP FBs.

Many FBs in Omron allow you to make the FB itself transitional. For example, if you simply put an ADD block in and the RLO to the left of it is true every scan, it will ADD every scan. If you append the the "@" symbol such as @ADD, then it will only add on the low to high transition of the RLO. A very nice little feature I wish the others had picked up.

As has been mentioned, the memory structure is quite a bit different. It is best to start there as far as understanding and then work your way out.

I think AB is set up more for people who like to build ladder with the mouse, where Omron is unparalleled in my opinion on keyboard support. With AB if you want to really be efficient from the keyboard it is probably best to type in the mneumonics all as text and then it interprets that text to build the ladder. With Omron when you type it in you are still "graphically" building the ladder even though you can invoke the FBs by typing in their mneumonics. Hope I didn't make that too confusing.

In CXone you can still have subroutine in your list on the left hand side, but it executes those subroutines in the order in which you list them. In RSLogix most of us use the main subroutine to invoke all of our other sub in the order we choose. With Omron it will execute them all in the order you place them in the tree. Has its advantages and disadvantages.

If you call your local Omron distrubutor they should be able to provide you with a free demo version of CXOne to fuss around with.

 

[mendonsy]

Ron,
It appears the US website is not responding for manual requests, and it is not indexed by manual number. Links below are from the Omron European website.

W353 manual link for the CPM2A:
http://downloads.industrial.omron.e...es/CPM1A/W353/W353-E1-06+CPM_+ProgrManual.pdf

W339 manual link for the CJ1G:
http://downloads.industrial.omron.e...339/W339-E1-15A+CS-Series+OperationManual.pdf

mendonsy, thanks for providing the link information. Guessing they are still updating the US website.

Hmmmm ...... I'm not having any problem accessing the PDFs but I do agree they could do a LOT better job with the organization of the new US site. It was a lot easier to find stuff on the old one.

 

[BobB]

Ron – where to start!
The CPM2A is a shoebox – now discontinued. If there is a failure replace with the CP1L – USB programming port and basically the same instruction set as the CJ1/CJ2 – including 64 bit floating point maths – far in advance of the CPM series.
The CJ1 is still around but generally replaced with the CJ2 – upgrade with USB programming port.
The CPM series and CP1 series have fixed I/O allocation for the I/O – inputs start at channel 0 and outputs start at channel 100 – the CJ1/CJ2 do not have fixed I/O allocation but the allocation depends on what is in the slot. For the CJ1/CJ2 say there is a 16 bit input card in slot 0 – the addressing will be channel 0 – 00000.00 to 00000.15. Say there is a 64 bit output card in slot 1 – this will take up channels 1, 2, 3 and 4 – 00001.00 to 00004.15.
It appears your customer may have his software up to date – check and make sure CX-Programmer is version 9.4. Free updates on the web – I check mine weekly.
CX-Programmer will automatically convert from an older PLC to a newer PLC for you with a few exceptions – mainly around special I/O cards such as analogue cards – some manipulation generally required.
The CPM2A instruction set is quite small – the CJ1/CP1 series have a huge instruction set.
The CPM2A timers and counters are BCD based.
The CJ1 series defaults to BCD based but can be changed in the PLC setup to binary based.
The CJ2 (for replacement) supports both BCD and binary based timers and counters.
BCD/HEX values are prefixed with # in instructions – binary based are prefixed with & in instructions (CJ1) – however you can even use # in a binary instruction but the HEX value will be used and not the binary value (have to convert it).
Damien made a comment about FBs (KEEP etc) – these are not FBs but simple instructions. KEEP is available in the CPM series but KEEP and SET/RSET are available as well as KEEP in the CJ1. The CJ1 does have real FBs – the CPM series does not.
He also made note of DIFU and DIFD (differential up and down) – in the CPM series these instructions are available. They are also available in the CJ1 but here you can also place a differential on the input – either up or down.
He also made mention of the @ symbol – I use this regularly with the increment and decrement commands – rising edge trigger basically when incrementing a channel in this case. It can also be used in front of any maths function to allow a calculation to take place on a rising edge only and not constantly.
He also mentions no inline maths – not true for the CJ1 – inline maths are available – not available in the CPM series.
Comments/symbols etc are not stored in the CPM series but are stored in the CJ1 series.
I always program by keyboard and having to use a mouse drives me nuts – came up in the old DOS days – love CX-P for that – if I wish to use input channel 0 bit 5 I just type in 5 and it does it for me. If I wish to use channel 100 bit 7 I just type in 100.07 and it does the rest for me.
It is also possible to program your own quick keys into CX-P – really handy.
Data memories are basically registers but are all retentive.
H channels/bits are also memory retentive.
The CIO area is a huge memory map – Common I/O Area – and anything not being used for real I/O can be used for internal bits/channels.
The CJ1 also has a W area – read memory or internal bits.
You can download a 30 day trial version of CX-One here
http://industrial.omron.eu/en/misc/forms/download_cx-one_trial.html?referrer=14598&subject=CX-One
As with any new PLC Ron there is a huge learning curve – the damn things are so powerfull these days it is not funny.
If I can help further please let me know.
If you wish I can send you some programs from jobs that may help – depends what you want. Swimming pool jobs are generally pretty simple – generator jobs are not with lots of Modbus RTU comms etcetera.
I also have some huge systems with heaps of networking – Controller Link, Device Net, CompoNet, Ethernet IP – and a combination of the lot.
Commenting is probably a bit brief but if it will help please let me know.
CX-Programmer is really good for keyboard entry - hate having to drag and drop with a mouse - came up in the bad old DOS days when keyboard programming ruled. Still do it that way these days - hate mice!
Keyboard short cuts are programmable too.

 

[chavak]

Hi Ron,

I use both AB & Omron, of course chosen by customers.

To be fair, I didn't like Omron until CJ series was released, mostly because of difficulty in handling maths instructions. Fustrations was - a one rung solution by AB was only achievable by many rungs together with many conversions in Omron. But all that changed with CJ/CS series.

Another important aspect to remember is unlike AB, omron do not hold the bit values upon a power recycle. If you need one, use 'H' registers and use either Set/Reset, Keep etc instructions to do so. I like the 'Keep' instruction because in one rung you can see how it is latched and unlatched. [Ease of trouble shooting]

To my surprise Device net setup was a breeze on CJ, never worked with Ethernet/Combo bus though.

CX-One package include CX-Designer which is an application to create HMI. On a scale of 1 to 10, I will rate 9 for CX Designer and 2 for RS View ME on ease and speed of screen creation.

Should we compare the cost, nah, let the end user decide it.

Regards

 

[Ron Beaufort]

first thank you all ... this has been a very instructive thread – and all of the information will be extremely helpful ...

just to fill you in on some more of the project: I personally will not be learning or teaching anything about Omron ... it's my new customer who'll be developing the Omron course material – for his own "in house" training program ... in that regard, all of the "nuts-and-bolts" information that's been provided in this thread will be extremely helpful to him in the future ...

basically he has a small crew of technicians who travel and maintain Omron-controlled equipment ... these guys are "knowledgeable" but could use some additional training in troubleshooting skills ... the PLC programs have already been written ... some minor "tweaking" of a few rungs might be required from time-to-time – but "programming" skills are not part of the training project ...

now here's where I personally come in:

my customer has decided that my "boot camp" training approach is what he needs for his existing crew – and for any "new hires" which he might add in the future ... so even though I don't offer Omron classes, the customer still wants to take one of my five-day Allen-Bradley classes anyway ... his purpose is not to learn Allen-Bradley – but rather to see how my boot camp training approach works in action ... after that, my customer (not I) will put together a "troubleshooting" course for his maintenance technicians ...

closing out – I've sent my customer a link to this thread – and I'm quite sure that he'll be pleasantly surprised (if not "overwhelmed") by the generous time and effort that you folks have put into this ... in particular, the "nuts-and-bolts" information will be especially helpful to him as he starts developing the course material for his own "in house" training program ...

personally, I've enjoyed reading about the Omron systems – and to be honest, I'd like to play around with one ... but ... lately I've been "blessed to death" with work on Allen-Bradley and since the "old dog" is now 66, I'm afraid that it's getting too late to learn many "new tricks" ...

anyway ...

unless someone has another opinion, I'm pretty sure that my five-day class for the SLC-500/MicroLogix platforms will be the "best fit" for this gentleman to take ... naturally it won't be exactly like his Omron systems – but it won't be as taxing as a five-day ControlLogix/CompactLogix class ...

again, I thank you all ... this has been extremely helpful – and I sincerely appreciate your time and effort ...

 

[BobB]

Spring chicken Ron - I am 69 and still learning new tricks - keeps the mind active!

 

[gtsuport]

BobB,
With all due respect (and I mean that sincerely), I guess you really are The Old Pfhaart!

 

[BobB]

No kidding GT? Been called far worse than that - like grumpy old 'B' and all three are applicable and many more disparaging remarks as well! All good fun.

Ron, something I may add,the hardest thing your customers guys may find is getting their head around how the programmer has programmed the PLC. I have developed ways that make my life easy and that means I can write software very quickly. Quite often I go to a job site with no software in the bag at all - just type in all the symbols before I go. Fortunately CX-One has extremely good support for Excel - just copy tags out into Excel, modify/change/copy paste and modify and copy straight back into CX-P - best I have seen. Typing in the symbols generally takes longer than writing the software.

I have standard Modbus RTU routines for comms to, say, Caterpillar engines, Can J1939 - yuck - lots of floating point maths. I just dump the comms and maths routines into CX-P - modify - see what info there is in the engine (never 2 engines are the same) and delete what I do not have.

I generally write all my alarms/shutdowns and control software in a couple of hours and have 2/3 generators up and running in a day.

Because it is all so fine tuned someone coming along to trouble shoot would have to get their head around my style of programming - it is extremely efficient for me but may take someone some time to sort out what I have done.

I guess this is the same with any software though - I avoid Function Block programming at all costs - no need to do it with the function set in a CJ1 anyway. That way if I have a guy on the phone trying to trouble shoot a job thousands of miles away I can go through it easily with him. If there were FBs written in ST it would be a nightmare to trouble shoot over the phone. FB programmers do not understand the difficulties of doing that.