Differential pressure transducer

Huh?

Differential pressure is the very means to counteract the varying pressures in a vessel and still maintain proper measurement....

At least I think.......Or my distillation column has been wrong for the last 5 years.........Or maybe it hasn't been swinging from full vacuum to 50psi like I think it has.........:D

Dave
 
I can't believe no one has suggested Rosemount yet... where I work (not Rosemount or any affiliated company, by the way) they are considered the gold standard for fluid sensors. Looking through their catalog I see several dp transmitters that will meet your specifications. They are priced about what you'd expect for being top of the line, but worth every penny, long-term.
 
Hello Waterboy,

What's the difference between lets say a Differential pressure transmitters of Rosemount, E&H, Vega eso? Your talking here about a relative easy measurement.

Rudi
 
Probably not much of a difference... I've never seen the specs on the ones you mentioned so I couldn't say for certain. I was just expressing some surprise that it seemed like people were just discounting the dp sensor and jumping off into alternate means to measure the level.

I know for certain that Rosemount makes a dp sensor that ranges -3 to 3" of water with .1% (full scale) accuracy. Other manufacturers may have similar offerings.
 
Box? What Box?

Forget the Differential Transducer.

Use a Strain Gauge under the container and a Pressure Sensor on the Environment.

Develop a relationship between the Environment Pressure and the Strain Gauge reading (without water).

When the test begins, with water, subtract the Environment Pressure effect from the Stain Gauge reading.

Scale the result to water height.

If pressure is varying then adjust your final result according to the relationship.

You might need to throw a "TARE" function in there somewhere.

Omega has a sensor "PX182" that sounds about right for the environment pressure.

Of course, the real problem is the diameter of the tube...

A water level of .5mm across 10mm weighs a hell of a lot less than .5mm across 100mm. What is the weight of .5mm of water?

A plus/minus 3" resolution sure can't be anywhere near what you need.
 
Thats why you use DP

Terry,
He didn't say +- 3" of water.....He said -3" to +3" of water column as in the span of the transmitter. Also with a differential pressure measurement it doesn't matter how big it is....Also there are no calculations to make and nothing to tare. It could be a tapered box and 250mm of water is still 250mm of water. Clean and simple and IT WORKS like it has worked since the dawn of time.

The Water Boy.......good call on the Rosemont products wish we used them at my plant now......Honeywell got the initial project bid so you know how that goes. :D

Dave
 
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Terry, busting out the physics books:

Pressure at the bottom of a column of liquid=(liquid height * liquid density) + pressure on the surface of the liquid

With one side of the dp transmitter connected to the top of the container to counteract the pressure of the vessel, we eliminate the surface pressure from the equation and end up with nothing but the pressure from the height of the water. It doesn't matter what pressure in the vessel is, it always gets cancelled. No tares, conversions, or adjustments needed past converting pressure to height via density.
 
I should have more clearly indicated that my response was directed to the original post made by LadderLogic.

Although LadderLogic didn't say so, I assume that there is a PLC involved in this somehow (this place being PLCS.net and all). At the very least, a small "brick-type" PLC with some analog I/O.

As far as "To Tare or Not to Tare..."... that really depends on the process and the procedure. Actually... LadderLogic has left this wide open. There is no indication of the process or procedure being employed.

Possibility #1: Add water to the glass then pressurize the chamber.
Possibility #2: Pressurize the chamber then add water to the glass.
Possibility #3: ? ? ? ? ? ?

LadderLogic, you sorta-kinda indicate that you want to do this on the cheap. Using the Strain Gauge and Pressure Sensor scheme you can have four or five "spares" sitting on the shelf. How many spare differential pressure sensors can you afford? Can you afford a differential pressure sensor at all?

My simple vision is a chamber with an environmental pressure transducer (mA Output) and a reasonable pressure gauge. At any time you can read the gauge and compare that to the analog signal. That would be just for the warm-fuzzy-feeling of knowing that the pressure sensor is behaving reasonably.

I really don't know what the chamber looks like so... I envision the glass-tube assembly sitting on a Strain Gauge (mA Output). The Strain Gauge is wired to a connection point on the wall of the chamber.

The environmental pressure sensing arrangement is entirely independent of the glass-tube assembly and its' characteristics. That is, the glass-tube assembly can be changed to any configuration without effecting the environmental pressure sensor reading.

The strain gauge doesn't need to know the shape of the glass-tube assembly. It doesn't care. All it needs to know is the weight of the assembly without any water.

It should be fairly easy to validate the response of the system. A reasonable pressure gauge can verify that the pressure transducer is responding reasonably.

The strain gauge can be validated by executing a "dry run". The "dry run" might be executed with the glass-tube assembly installed, or not. Simply pressurize the chamber at a particular rate and monitor the response of the strain gauge as the "dry run" proceeds.

Granted, someone has to burn a few brain cells developing the relationship between air pressure and strain gauge response. It shouldn't be that big a deal. I should expect a simple linear relationship that can be determined empirically.

The point is that this simple arrangement is flexible and cheap!

Of course... the validity of my simplistic view depends on the true nature of the process and procedure.

Can you fill in a few details, LadderLogic?
 
Terry:

This is an attempt to automate a series of soil tests, one of which is so-called "tri-axial test". In the simplest of forms, it is the way to determine the permeabillity of a soil sample to water: how much water wood seep through under certain conditions in a certain time. Or something like that (sorry, a civil engineer or a geologist would be able to provide a better description).

The sample is a cylindrical piece about 2" in diameter and 6" tall. Two pieces of lexane (called "platens") of the same diameter are placed on each end of the sample. The whole "sandwich" (top platen - sample-bottom platen is inserted into a thin rubber sleeve and placed on the bottom of the glass vessel (roughly 3" dia. X 10" tall).

Each platen has a bored cavity with a fitting leading to it. Before the vessel is sealed and filled with water, plastic tubes are connected to each of two fittings, wich, in turn, lead outside of the vessel.

Water surrounding the sample seals the rubber sleeve around it. After some soaking (which may take up to 24 hours!), water is being supplied into both the top and the bottom platen - under pressure. For example, the water supply into the top platen is set at 73 psi, the bottom platen - 70 psi and water in the vessel - 80 psi. This difference in pressure (73 - 70) creates flow - very slow one.

Each of the two water sources (one for the top and one for the bottom) is fitted with a burette - a glass tube about 20 mm in diameter with level marks on it (0.5 mm resolution). After each source has been filled with water and it sets at some level in each burette, there is air under pressure (73 psi in the first one and 70 psi in the second one) above each water column. As the test progresses, the levels change: decrease in the top-platen burette and increase in the bottom-platen one. Initiallly, the amount of level decrease in the first burette is greater than the amount of increase in the second one; eventually (after some more long hours) these amounts will become equal. That completes the test. At present, everything is done by hand: turning all the valves on and off, adjusting the pressures, reading the levels every 15 minutes or so - all done by an operator.

Although 70-80 psi are typical numbers for the test, the main air supply provides 200 psi. This means that any differential pressure transducer used to measure the level, must be able to withstand this much pressure without being destroyed - in case one of its ports gets disconnected or some regulator goes wild. One the other hand, it must be sensitive enough to detect 0.5 mm change in the level of water.

It would be a sweet small PLC project if not for the need to measure those levels with somewhat conflicting requirements (high resolutuion/accuracy vs. ability to withstand high ambient pressures). The ideas I've seen so far (Honeywell, Rosemont) look nice, although a bit bulky - they are packaged for power plant or industrial use and have a lot of extra stuff (comm. protocols etc.)

Pressure is somewhat like voltage - it makes sense only in relation to some other point, not by itself. Any ordinary pressure gauge is, in essence, "differential" - the second point being the Earth atmosphere.
 
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I have developed and built many instruments for this is my area of expertise.

Here is what I have done for a similar project.

You use a microphotoeye with an emiter and a receiver.(I used fiber optic cables to guide the light)
You built a mechanical linear movement to move the photoeye. (UP and DOWN continuously)(simple dc motor)
You position the emiter and receiver accross the burette.
Adjust the sensitivity of the light so it is detected when is goes through the liquid and through the open space above the liquid.
When the light hits the top of the liquid, it has an oval shape. Light will get messed up and you will get a clear signal that this is where the level is if you fit this with an encoder.

You can built this for a fraction of the cost of those DP cell and you can throw in a PC for Data logging ;)

You will get a precision 10x what you need and no contact with the process.

Built a real nice setup and keep your price high.
 
Civil Engineering 101

Ladder,

Before you get too carried away on that "meniscus follower" remember the first rule of CE......... Dirt + Water = Mud. I think you need to follow your gut.........go with the DP....

Dave
 

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