First Panel - First CAD work - Criticisms and comments welcome (pictures)

It is very difficult to glean from the drawing, so I had to guess some things.

It seems you have "auxilliary relays" where the cable or cables to/from the VFD have to pass. This I would definitely avoid.

You have a "fused ????? distribution" in the right side above the VFD. Is this for the 24VDC ? I would put these in the left side of the panel.

I would have kept all AC power as much as possible in the right side of the panel.

From years of experience, I can tell you, avoid dual level terminal blocks if possible. One must be desperate for space to use dual level terminal blocks.

About the "air" around components. Sure, some parts require distance to other components. But some others do not. For example, it looks to me you have something like 100-150 mm above the PLC.

Using CAD drawings to layout components is possible. But to see the components in real life is better.

That's all 240VAC on the right for low current stuff (cooling fan, line to DC PS, etc).

I can do without the aux relay near the VFD. VFD output cable will be shielded. Does this still pose a risk of inducing current on one of those PLC outputs sufficient to interfere with contactor or relay operation? I really am asking, I don't know.

PLC clearance needed is only 75mm.

Don't keep it a secret, tell me what is wrong with the dual level terminals? I had a lot of guys recommend 2 and even 3 level terminals.
 
That's all 240VAC on the right for low current stuff (cooling fan, line to DC PS, etc).

I can do without the aux relay near the VFD. VFD output cable will be shielded. Does this still pose a risk of inducing current on one of those PLC outputs sufficient to interfere with contactor or relay operation? I really am asking, I don't know.

PLC clearance needed is only 75mm.

Don't keep it a secret, tell me what is wrong with the dual level terminals? I had a lot of guys recommend 2 and even 3 level terminals.

I like the three level terminal for inputs. Have bottom rail Common 24v+ Middle rail 0v- top rail Input works well with 3 wire sensors and switches.
 
Don't keep it a secret, tell me what is wrong with the dual level terminals? I had a lot of guys recommend 2 and even 3 level terminals.
I'm with JesperMP on this. During installation when there's lots of light, and room to work, and everything is nice and clean it's not so bad.

However... Once the backplane is installed in the enclosure

  • you're automatically going to lose some room to work, that is, removing and replacing wires, especially at the edges.
  • you likely won't have the bright lighting you had when building
  • the panel will be vertical rather than horizontal. This can create some interesting positioning challenges.
  • stuff tends to get dirty. Brown, black, and blue wiring can be hard to distinguish when there's a layer of crud on everything.
Which leads to - parallax. Trying to pick out or reinstall a wire at the bottom of a dark tangle isn't so easy in the field and another level just makes it that much worse. You can think the wire is in the correct terminal then find out the hard way it is not. Don't ask how I know this :oops:.

Anyhow, that's my take. Your mileage may vary.
 
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The only time I find multilevel blocks of value is when the bottom row(s) are tied together as power and/or common and the top blocks are the input or output signals. Trying to use each level of each row as a unique wire makes field work a cussing fit...Only use them if you have dozens of sensors and they all connect to the bottom rows for power and power supply common and the top row for input signals or some equivalent good cause. Otherwise avoid them and put spares and as much space as you can between terminals and the ducts.

I don't foresee any problems with your signal routing or noise. It is good to be concerned with it, and you understand good wiring practices. It appears you did a fairly decent job of designing to avoid problems within your constraints of keeping the same enclosure and cable entry. I assume that is the reason for the odd location of the main cb/disconnect.

I tend to agree with Jesper you could shuffle them in Autocad or even as "paper dolls" and improve it.

The constraints I am faced with for this are: potential high temperature locations, mounted outdoors, and mounting is configured only for a 42x36 panel without major external component reconfiguration and fabrication - it's a retrofit. The only place the supply power can enter the enclosure is on the top right side. With it being an outdoor location, I didn't want to bring power in through the top, leaving the upper right side for the main breaker/disconnect components.

You can come in at the same point (top right) and easily bend and go straight down into the top of the MCB mounted upright, out of the bottom of it into your main power distribution blocks, if used, or to your main CBs. Are those all 75amp? Or 75amp frames? Anyway from there to your power devices, keep the 3 phase all on the right except for perhaps the supply wires to the low voltage transformer/dc supply.

Paper dolls: Print out the blocks of each object in your panel and a blank sheet of the panel backplate with the stuff that can't be moved printed on it. It can be scaled down for bigger panels or machinery layouts. Rearranging the cut out pieces of paper on a table is often more intuitive and faster and can give your brain a CRT break...

This panel is just busy enough I would tend to have a good plan going in. If it was just a bit simpler, I would go along with a "build it first and then design it" approach like Jesper said. You know all the components you must have, toss in a few you think you might need, and get them ordered asap. lay out the panel and major pieces first with high voltage segregation and wire routing in mind, then order whatever size and depth ducts and extra terminals or spare pieces you might need. Laying it all out in real life with real parts is for sure the best thing to do if you have most of the stuff on hand. Then you can see things you have not consider like for example the depth of the terminal points of some devices from the backplate which call for taller ducts.

At some point you need to ensure the wiring diagram can be accommodated by the number of terminal blocks you have. I really despise seeing terminals stuffed with too many wires especially in a new installation and with modern miniature everything available, there is no excuse.
 
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The only time I find multilevel blocks of value is when the bottom row(s) are tied together as power and/or common and the top blocks are the input or output signals. Trying to use each level of each row as a unique wire makes field work a cussing fit...Only use them if you have dozens of sensors and they all connect to the bottom rows for power and power supply common and the top row for input signals or some equivalent good cause. Otherwise avoid them and put spares and as much space as you can between terminals and the ducts.

I don't foresee any problems with your signal routing or noise. It is good to be concerned with it, and you understand good wiring practices. It appears you did a fairly decent job of designing to avoid problems within your constraints of keeping the same enclosure and cable entry. I assume that is the reason for the odd location of the main cb/disconnect.

I tend to agree with Jesper you could shuffle them in Autocad or even as "paper dolls" and improve it.



You can come in at the same point (top right) and easily bend and go straight down into the top of the MCB mounted upright, out of the bottom of it into your main power distribution blocks, if used, or to your main CBs. Are those all 75amp? Or 75amp frames? Anyway from there to your power devices, keep the 3 phase all on the right except for perhaps the supply wires to the low voltage transformer/dc supply.

Paper dolls: Print out the blocks of each object in your panel and a blank sheet of the panel backplate with the stuff that can't be moved printed on it. It can be scaled down for bigger panels or machinery layouts. Rearranging the cut out pieces of paper on a table is often more intuitive and faster and can give your brain a CRT break...

This panel is just busy enough I would tend to have a good plan going in. If it was just a bit simpler, I would go along with a "build it first and then design it" approach like Jesper said. You know all the components you must have, toss in a few you think you might need, and get them ordered asap. lay out the panel and major pieces first with high voltage segregation and wire routing in mind, then order whatever size and depth ducts and extra terminals or spare pieces you might need. Laying it all out in real life with real parts is for sure the best thing to do if you have most of the stuff on hand. Then you can see things you have not consider like for example the depth of the terminal points of some devices from the backplate which call for taller ducts.

At some point you need to ensure the wiring diagram can be accommodated by the number of terminal blocks you have. I really despise seeing terminals stuffed with too many wires especially in a new installation and with modern miniature everything available, there is no excuse.

The dual level comments make more sense now. I can imagine it would be a royal PITA to be working with that bottom row, especially in less-than-ideal conditions. My bottom row is all 0VDC and the top level goes to the I/O so no one should need to mess with that bottom row. On the suggestion of several here I've incorporated spare terminal blocks, both for I/O and for 24VDC and 0VDC distribution.

Paper dolls for a computer screen break seems a wonderful idea... Once the CAD models are in and scaled, the printout is easy...

Maybe I've been pessimistic with the wire bending, I was just worried I wouldn't be able to make a sharp corner. Do you use MTW for the larger gauge stuff too, like the runs from the distribution block to the breakers and breakers to load? Or recommend another type?

By the way, the two heater MCCBs are 75A breakers with a 125A frame and the VFD is a 60A MCCB. And yes, the constraints are the reason for the horizontal MCCB mounting. It's not too late to change that, all of the control components, SSRs, and VFD are mounted but the MCCBs are not and I haven't made knockouts for conduit on the enclosure yet. Worst case I would have a few unused tapped holes on the backplate. Okie, mind if I send you a PM to discuss further?
 
I think you will need some space and a bend to get the feeder wire into place if you turn it upright. As is, if it goes straight in, are you planning on stabbing all three legs in the lugs at the same time as you poke the pipe in the side and nut it up?

Okay, so the large frame breakers are necessary, just checking. If you can use MTW within the panel or even DLO wire for really big stuff then do it. Not for the wires leaving the panel though.

I don't have access to Autocad anymore or I would offer to work up some alternatives right quick.
 
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I think you will need some space and a bend to get the feeder wire into place if you turn it upright. As is, if it goes straight in, are you planning on stabbing all three legs in the lugs at the same time as you poke the pipe in the side and nut it up?

Okay, so the large frame breakers are necessary, just checking. If you can use MTW within the panel or even DLO wire for really big stuff then do it. Not for the wires leaving the panel though.

I don't have access to Autocad anymore or I would offer to work up some alternatives right quick.

If I had to wire the feeder in, yes that is what I would plan. It's unlikely that I'll have to do the feeder install though =) Regardless, is that a bad plan?

DLO is similar to welding cable in flex?

Forget AutoCAD - DraftSight is a great program by the company that owns Solidworks... It's the reason I was able to learn enough CAD to be dangerous for this project... http://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight/overview/
 
Forget AutoCAD - DraftSight is a great program by the company that owns Solidworks... It's the reason I was able to learn enough CAD to be dangerous for this project... http://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight/overview/
Yeah. I searched a long time for an AutoCAD replacement and also ended up with this one. I'm always looking for FOSS (say Linux) apps and tried LibreCAD for example. it reads/writes DXF but it didn't work (feel) like AutoCAD. I'm a great fan of typing commands with keyboard and do the actual 'drawing' with the mouse/pointer.
Hmm this almost looks like a rant but what does a man need more than Line, Circle, Offset and Trim? maybe DIM in a while...
 
I see what you guys meant about dual-level terminal blocks. They will work fine for me as I am using the bottom level for 0VDC for my PLC I/O but it is a pain to get wiring back there.

So here are a few pics of my progress so far. I feel like the door could look better but I wasn't really sure how to go about any of this so please suggest better ways. The HMI is fuzzy because of my terrible picture. Yes, there are a few wires currently without labels and no lamacoid component labels, but those are both coming.

One thing I really wasn't crazy about was that it looks like the Hitachi drive routes the comm/IO cabling right past the AC in/out, which is why I ran it around and through the front. Any suggestions there? I don't have shielded VFD cable in this picture, but it's installed now. Thanks for looking.

20140930_215153.jpg 20140930_215733.jpg 20140930_220119.jpg
 
I like the dual level terminal blocks for solenoids as it keeps the hot and neutral together on the same assembly if you have to isolate it to test.

We have some phoenix blocks that we use for motor wires going to the field so they are 4 level one for each phase and ground and again keeps everything together on the same assembly

I have no issue working with as long as they are put in the correct place in the panel there are no issues getting to them and it's not like you have to touch them on a daily basis.
 
So here are a few pics of my progress so far. I feel like the door could look better but I wasn't really sure how to go about any of this so please suggest better ways.
Looks very nice! Back to the NFPA - I don't have a copy in front of me but I think since you have powered components mounted on the door you'll need a braided cable ground bond between the door and the cabinet proper.

Informative link: http://http://www.panduit.com/heiler/SpecificationSheets/WW-GRSP12%20%28structuredground%20flat%20braided%20bonding%20straps%29%20WEB%208-3-11.pdf
 
Looks very nice! Back to the NFPA - I don't have a copy in front of me but I think since you have powered components mounted on the door you'll need a braided cable ground bond between the door and the cabinet proper.

Informative link: http://http://www.panduit.com/heiler/SpecificationSheets/WW-GRSP12%20%28structuredground%20flat%20braided%20bonding%20straps%29%20WEB%208-3-11.pdf

I was just going to bond them with a wire so thank you for mentioning the braided cable.
 
Here you can see two of our panels made a few months ago.

All digital I/O's have dual-level terminal blocks and the analog I/O's have knife disconnect terminal blocks on the plus channel so we can open and read the loop current with the meter (helps a lot).

Capturar.jpg Capturar1.JPG Capturar2.JPG
 
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I'm with JesperMP on this. During installation when there's lots of light, and room to work, and everything is nice and clean it's not so bad.

I've placed these around the edges of large enclosures, facing "inward" in the past:

http://www.hero-ledstore.com/led-strip-lights-24v-led-tape-c-8_220.html

They are self adhesive and trim-able for length. They run off 24v, so they're easy to power, and I control them with a miniature limit switch activated by the door.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ries)/Plunger_with_Roller_Actuator/AAP2T13Z11

The techs love it, and I do too. Doesn't add an unreasonable cost to the panels, especially larger ones and it's so darn useful.


-rpoet
 

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