has anyone ever gone through this

Don´t worry

Don´t worry mate !!

I came from Zimbabwe two years ago (due to the political unrest) after working there for 15 years, on Substation installation, commisioning and maint.. I was a site manager for 6 of those years.. When I arrived in Portugal two years ago I Knew little of the language and have VERY limited PLC experience..

I found a job as as mainly a "JACK oF all Trades" Im involved with the operation , production , quality control and maint. It wasn´t easy, as this was all new !! bearing in mind the language barrier.. but all my collgues helped. I was honest at my intereview and everything is going well..

So take care and above all be honest and keen to work ,, undertake all problems as a challenge rather than a obstacle.. GOOD LUCK
 
Certification is a joke in most cases. I can understand knowing someone is capable of running conduit and wires but the certification for electricians is a joke.
moon2
You obviously have been working at the same plant for years and haven't seen some of the nightmare wiring jobs in some of these plants by the Maint. "Electricians". I hope eventually everyone that holds this position will be required to carry a J-man card, then they can't use the excuse they "didn't know". Then they can be held responsible for equipment damage and most of all injury or death of plant personnel. Wake up!! Electricity is dangerous and should only be handled by trained and qualified individuals.
 
No Harm Done

Tim said:
Vetteboy,
I hope you were'nt truly offended by any of my remarks. If you were then I'm sorry. I guess the old saying is true that "its all fun and games until someone gets hurt."

I'm sorry to you that I unloaded a little. I've been seeing a pattern over time in some postings bashing electricians, and this just happened to be the last straw. I'm surprised that anywhere in U.S. will let you work in the trade without a real Journeyman education. To legally work on anything electrical in Canada you need to be a Journeyman or Apprentice, or pull a homeowner's permit to wire your own house or shop. To actually pull a construction permit you need to have a Masters ticket, which is achieved by passing an intense code test and being in the trade 7 years. Your Masters can be taken from you if you have too many code violations.
 
Electricians

Vetteboy

go for it Vette don't back off.

I am a lifelong industrial electrician with about half of my life spent going to schools. I don't think I have learned everything yet but I will keep trying.
I do agree with you about the electricians being looked down on in some posts. I have worked with electricians that do everything and do it right and again I have worked with electricians that shouldn't even be called electricians. I have worked with some of these electronic geeks that walk around with their nose in the air and act like they are the reason electrons flow.
Your industrial Plant Electrician is the best all around mtce. employee that money can buy.
 
Well, rsdoran, in Alberta, Canada an electrician isn't just a slave to some tech school nerd (I'm an ex accountant by the way, so I know a nerd when I see one). Yes we have some here that wire houses etc, but all electricians need to do a four year apprenticeship with over a year of technical training (including electronics and PLCs)to work in the trade here. Also, Tim, you will notice that most electricians are in better shape and more likely to be able to push your scrawny little butt around. Let's just say a good electrician is the most well rounded individual you can meet. The perfect combination of Brains 'n' Brawn. Quit disrespecting electricians. I just made $90,000 this year in a place where my 1500 Square foot house cost me $135,000. Enough of the electrician bashing you fat, lazy, coke drinking geeks. Also, don't come crying to me when you bump the wrong thing and blow your arm off.

Well ifn ya have ever read anything in the posts about ME then you know I am not an engineer per se but a geek may apply in some ways even though I have long hair and have ridden a Harley since 69 and I went to NAM.

I worked to get where I am but if I had been smart I would have gotten a BS degree in this field. Personally I think the J card/certification is ****. works fine to teach running conduit/wire but who wants to spend 4 years to be qualified to bend a piece of metal and put wires in it and still make $20000 to $30000 a yr with overtime?
ITS A JOKE.
In some places in the Northern America hemisphere (which includes parts of Canada) the only thing necessary to be CONSIDERED an electrician is a government/county/city/province license that states you are qualified...in alot of cases NO TESTING is rquired just pay the fee.

You can take what I say any way you want BUT to EVER think I am at any point bashing electricians is IGNORANCE on YOUR part. I am an electrician, I have never gone thru any J CARD program BUT will match any J card carrier on running wire/conduit but may not match their time abilities. I have what you call a MASTER license because you can buy them, and I bought it because I can do the work.

Now for the question at hand...doing any form of control work...electrical/electronic tech work NORMALLY does not require the ability to run conduit/wire...that person must be able to DO MORE. That person must know what a stop/start latch ckt is.....J card electricians DO NOT necessarily know this.

IF you get lucky and can hire a person that is a J card holder AND knows control circuits then you are way ahead of most places.

Just look around you..how many of those J card electricians you know actually own a computer and understand any of the things that are discussed here? BET you cant bring 5 online to this site that can contribute. If I had teeth and a hat I would eat it if you can bring 2, the odds as I see them are in my favor. Engineers naturally are excluded from that deal.

I am in no way bashing electricians, I am and will bash what is considered CERTIFICATION. Thats a piece of paper that in alot of situations means nothing besides I can do the job BUT you dont have to pay me more than anyone else.
 
R.S.,
Why don't you go stand the Block? Bet the volume on your horn won't be as loud. BTW Ill.,In.,Ks.,Ky.,Mi.,N.Y.,Pa.,Tenn.,Tx. and Vt. Are the only states left that don't test.
 
Last edited:
To be perfectly honest, more J-Men electricians here know how a latching start/stop circuit works than do those who can run conduit. That is because even the guys who wire our houses have wired up motor starters and programmed PLCs in school, where as conduit bending is learned only on the job. I've run Rigid steel and aluminum, and some EMT, luckily not enough in my life to picture it as some torturous, thankless job. A real electrician takes pride in something that looks and works well. The day after you've done the job, the only thing people see is what you did, not how quickly you threw it up there. My point though is that a few of you have obviously not worked with enough REAL electricians to have a clue how diverse our skill base is.
 
Electricians

Vetteboy

So true, I have also bent conduit and other electricians functions during my life but could never match the skill of a true electrician. In reality there would not be a job for "keyboard electrician" if the REAL electricians didn't do their job. Fact is most people just pass by all those expertly ran banks of conduit without giving a thought as to how it got there. For the sake of keeping it civil just consider the source of all that blowing that it takes to self inflate an ego. :rolleyes:
 
Today, at least in the industry, employers are looking for something more then an electrician. Companies are looking for someone who can do it all. You cannot blame them. Would you want to pay for an electrician a plc programmer and a robot programmer, or do you want to pay one person who can do it all? So, this goes to my first question.

What is an electrician? My opinion is it's not the same definition as it was say 30 years ago. Now days, if you cannot operate a laptop, you’re in deep ****. Now this doesn't go for all situations. There are still plenty of situations where you get by knowing how to do an electricians job. This goes to my second question.

What are the duties of an electrician? My opinion is there are two classifications and they are "residential and industrial". The problem is there is no name for someone like rsdoran who can do a lot more then what most electricians can do. He has obviously gone above and beyond his "electrician" label. I also think that there are a lot of people who are labeled electricians, but are doing so much more than a typical electrician. I think most people on this site who are electricians are industrial electricians, do to the fact that there aren't to many plcs being installed in houses and the last time I check this was a plc site.

Hey, I've run my fair share of conduit, but do I need to do it for years and years? To me...no, for others...that’s what they choose to do. When I walk up to the front break I do look up at all the straight smooth arrays of conduit. I also think to myself....Man I'm sure glad I wasn’t told to do all that. Why, because I've done it and learned it and its OVER. Well at least I think its over, but maybe not to my boss. But if I were asked to do it again, count on it getting done and done right. If I was asked to program a plc or a robot or design some electrical prints when I was done with the conduit, again...count on it getting done.

The real question is how versatile are you? It has never crossed my mind to get my J-card or get certified. I don't need it to work in any industry setting where I live. I'm not interested in the residential part of it and by now am not interested in a place where I don't get a chance to learn more and more everyday. It's my only opinion that I cannot fulfill my needs doing a typical electricians job, but yet that’s my title and I didn't have to pay one cent for it. If I decide to get another job and get turned down because I don't have a piece of paper then so be it. I see it as there loss not mine.
 
RS, you state that even in parts of Canada you don't need to be certified. This is not correct. You need to be a J-man even to wire up an IGLOO for some poor eskimo that won't see the sun for another 2 months.
 
I can with knowledge disagree with that statement totally Vetteboy, for 2 reasons.

1. I have no J card and until recently never had any form of electrical licensing. I have worked in Canada as an electrician with that stated on my work Visa

2. I worked for a very large corporation not long ago that has a plant in Canada, I have mentioned the engineer before because he was good with RLL but could not grasp plc's. That site had in house electricians and none had any form of certification.

It was mentioned that X states are the only ones that dont test, doesnt matter if they do or not. THE tests are a joke in most cases. Its a way for any government to use safety and whatever as a reason to make you pay to have a job. The journeyman program is crazy, we are talking about something that takes years to finish but doesnt offer any real potential for future earnings. It allows employers the opportunity to keep people at low wages.

If a person thinks they can do a job or learn the job then they should attempt it if they can meet certain qualifications. If they feel that obtaining the certification is beneficial to them then they should obtain it. A piece of paper does not make you qualified, it just says you were shown or should know how something is done.

Above I stated if a person can meet certain qualifications. Not long ago we had a couple of positions open in Electrical and I was asked to interview the people for the position(s). I talked with them for awile and looked at a few things then asked them to draw a stop/start circuit, neither could do it properly but both had cards. I didnt suggest hiring either as electricians but did as maintenance mechanics. They are working there now.

If you can...you do.

If you cant...then you wont

I can not begin to tell you how many employers have stated to me "That paper means nothing to me". Its a show me what you can do world whether you have papers or not.

BTW I see that some are starting to beat the heads so I will let this thread alone.
 
Where?

You know I must ask.... Where in Canada?

I guess I should be a little more specific in my statement. Anyone working in the electrical field in Canada must be a Journeyman or work for a journeyman.
 
This is indeed an interesting thread, which I will join at this late stage to share my experiences.

You ask what is an electrician that can do more than just a bit of wiring. Simple, that's normally known here in the UK as a "Technician" a Technician is a halfway house between a "wireman" and an "Engineer". All three are supposed to describe specific jobs which require specific skills and qualifications.

a Wireman is usually someone with some basic training, perhaps on the job training or even an apprenticeship. He usually just builds machines, or wires plant and machinery to specific instructions, i.e working from a set of drawings that someone else has prepared. He doesn't necessarilly need to understand how the machine works.

A technician is normally apprentice trained plus some other qualifications, such as a HND here in the UK. His role is more involved. He is expected to know how machines work, understand PLC's and program them, fault find and fix them, understand drives, control logic etc etc. A more technically challenging job, but probably not doing very much real wiring.

An Engineer usually has at least a degree as his qualifications, but usually has less practical training. He's the guy that sits in a design office and prepares the schematics and panel layouts for your machines. He's expected to know a lot of technical stuff, including all sorts of programming. He rarely if ever gets his hands dirty, and probably wouldn't know what to do with a crimp tool if you gave him one.

Now I have my own chip on my shoulder, because I have met a LOT of "Engineers" who have good degree's, but quite frankly have virtually no practical knowledge and would be dangerous if they were let loose to fault find or repair a machine on their own. I have lost count of how many times an Engineer has asked me to fit a mains plug onto a bit of flex, because they don't know how.

It sounds to me like the original poster of this thread is looking for a technicians job. Well here in the UK you would find that hard to get without experience, so I guess what you really want is someone who will take you on as a trainee technician, and give you the necessary training, and oportunity to gain the necessary qualifications.

You might be wondering what job I do. Well i'm apprentice trained, HND qualified, and have 25 years experience working on industrial control equipment. I now do mainly machine design and PLC programming, but also get involved in commissioning and fault finding. I do little wiring now, but in the past I was just a wireman. I'm actually doing a job that when advertised was as an "Engineer" and required a degree qualification, and my sallary is that of an engineer. Some people actually call me an engineer. But hold on, I don't have a degree, so i'm not "officially" an engineer, but a technician. But I do seem to have a rather unique (among engineers) ability to actually understand and appreciate how to wire a machine and how to fault find a machine. Something which a lot of my more highly regarded "propper" engineering colleagues (the ones with degrees) don't have. Hence my chip on my shoulder, because I have the ability to do the job of an engineer and a technician, but a LOT of employers won't even consider me for an engineers job, because I don't have a degree.

If asked to reccomend a carreer path, I would undoubtably say the way I did it was best. Start with an apprenticeship and work your way up with experience and on the job training.
 

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