Here we go again (LOTO of control power)

[OkiePC]

I had a chat with the other safety person, one on one, and it went fine. He understands the situation and is working on fixing it...

 

[Ken Roach]

In Japan they just stared at me like I was speaking English when I asked where I could lock out the supply circuit before working on a 100A main lug set; their breakers and disconnects simply do not have lockout hardware.

 

[ASF]

Where I did my electrical apprenticeship we didn't use locks either. We had a very heavily documented danger tag/sign on/sign off procedure, and everyone understood that if you stepped outside the lines on that so much as once, you'd be fired on the spot. Since I didn't know any different, it seemed fair enough to me.

I don't know how things are in the US, but here you are legally liable for any actions you take when a danger tag is in place, lock or no lock. If you remove a danger tag without proper authority, you can be up on attempted murder charges even if nobody gets hurt/killed. Or so I've heard, I've never really found it necessary to look to much into it

But all that said, these days I'll use my lock. To paraphase Beyonce "If you touched in then you should have put a lock on it"

 

[ASF]

The other requirement they had at my apprenticeship factory was a visible air gap. You couldn't lock out a circuit breaker and say the machine was isolated, because you couldn't physically see a gap in the conductors, and therefore couldn't be 100% sure one phase hadn't welded or something. You had to remove fuses or withdraw modules, or completely rack the breakers out on bigger circuits. That philosophy kinda makes "locking out a pushbutton" look decidedly underdone

 

[xiaolong]

your story makes me think about the safety exit we have here in our building. They are locked at almost each floors.
Last week was a great moment of fun : we had the maintenance people who unlocked the safety exit jsut before a fire drill exercise ... and closed them one hour after the exercise ends.

 

[Temper]

The thing I wonder about even more than the stupidity of locking out an e-stop is: can the lock be applied without the e-stop being activated? I've seen a few instances of people applying locks without throwing handles on local disconnects (slow down and pay attention!).

I had an interesting situation in my plant a while ago:

We have a few different styles of local disconnect switches. We also have banks of disconnects with a lockout cable that passes through all the handles and you only need to use one lock for the bank. Apparently it is possible to throw a disconnect handle back up with the cable through since the cable can bend and move on some of them. Some switches are better than others and can't be bypassed in this way.

In my mind, turning on a disconnect with a cable through it is no less illegal than cutting a lock in order to turn it on. Turning on a locked out disconnect is malicious intent no matter the situation.

My point is, where do we draw the line? Individual locks on each switch? A human guard to stand by an ensure nobody screws with the lockout? If someone wants to kill you, they'll find a way to kill you.

 

[sparkie]

Locking out estops would be okay to keep someone from being able to turn on a machine for a non-safety related reason, but each and every single one of our potentially harmful pieces of equipment has a lockout point for each type of energy.

Electrical - Local disconnects and breakers for lower amp and low voltage circuits (breaks aren't local of course)

Fluid - Valves (and lock out the pump of course)

Gravity/Mechanical - They provide whatever is necessary.

Also each machine has it's own LOTO procedure, which we are tested on for our areas. We also have MCC's/breaker panels for when we need to do work to a disconnect. Stupid sticks are pretty awesome for a quick verification (unless its HV of course).

I just happen to realize that I am clumsy, and I'm also in the wrong field to be clumsy, so I have to slow down and take my time when it comes to start a job or I WILL hurt myself.

 

[OkiePC]

Locking out estops would be okay to keep someone from being able to turn on a machine for a non-safety related reason.

Uh, nope. Sounds nice, seems okay, but nope...

"1910.147(c)(5)(ii)
Lockout devices and tagout devices shall be singularly identified; shall be the only devices(s) used for controlling energy; shall not be used for other purposes; ..."

If you use your LOTO lock for anything else, those less educated and experienced will begin to assume the worst...that they are safe to do anything...You can't lock your locker or toolbox with them. Heck, we even had to get a written letter from the safety folks (at a previous employer) just to let us lock our LOTO locks to the handles on the side of our toolboxes for storage...

 

[HarleyHetz]

While it is true that Sparkie missed the boat on the E-stop question, he did hit upon one other aspect of LOTO that I personally feel is critical:
Each piece of equipment should have posted in a conspicous place a procedure that identifies each potential energy source, and the PROPER procedure for locking it out.
With this document in place around the equipment, and documentation of training of the plant floor workers, the company is protecting its' assets from lawsuits around negligence.
If I were in your position, I would recommend to your safety department that they develop a "crew of volunteers" to go around and develop this documentation for the equipment during scheduled downtime. In this manner, you can volunteer for the "crew" and help those associated to understand the importance of the assigned task. And, I think I would make this recommendation to the safety leader, as well as the plant manager IN WRITING. They will almost always respond positively if you put the request in a form such that they can't claim ignorance later. Be sure to include the protection from liability in the note, and don't point fingers (not that I think you would after reading your former posts) or blasphemy anyone.
Best of luck, and don't back down, I don't think that you'd forgive yourself if you did and someone was injured as a result!!

 

[OkiePC]

While it is true that Sparkie missed the boat on the E-stop question, he did hit upon one other aspect of LOTO that I personally feel is critical:
Each piece of equipment should have posted in a conspicous place a procedure that identifies each potential energy source, and the PROPER procedure for locking it out.
With this document in place around the equipment, and documentation of training of the plant floor workers, the company is protecting its' assets from lawsuits around negligence.

We have that. Clearly marked lockout points. Why they added the other junk seems to boil down to operations thinking that it was a good idea to be able to lock cage doors open so that if you go past the door, maybe you are out of sight inside a machine...at that point, REAL LOTO is required, but for whatever reason some folks thought they were "going above and beyond" and missed the point of the "other use" clause.

If I were in your position, I would recommend to your safety department that they develop a "crew of volunteers" to go around and develop this documentation for the equipment during scheduled downtime. In this manner, you can volunteer for the "crew" and help those associated to understand the importance of the assigned task.

Yep. Been done. There are big laminated tags on each real disconnect on every machine affected with numbers referencing the LOTO docs. This is all going to be done again from what I understand and I will be involved I am pretty sure. They have a good written HECP plan for each machine, it is just that the training seems to have gone in one ear and out the other for a few folks not taking it seriously enough or not paying attention.

And, I think I would make this recommendation to the safety leader, as well as the plant manager IN WRITING. They will almost always respond positively if you put the request in a form such that they can't claim ignorance later. Be sure to include the protection from liability in the note, and don't point fingers (not that I think you would after reading your former posts) or blasphemy anyone.

I told the person that I did NOT do this formally and in writing for the very reason that I don't want to put them under direct legal pressure right this minute, to give them time to take some action and let it be their idea. I made him aware of the fact that I understand the legal implications of making it formal. I am giving them time to get their ducks in a row, but that if a few weeks go by and I don't see action, that I will repeat my concern in an email to make it official. I know these types of culture changes take time. Not that I think it should not be done right now no matter what the costs, but I have to be reasonable if I expect to keep the job...I let him know that I will walk off the job, no problem if I think that I am getting ignored. He said the right things to me, he is an honest person, looked me dead in the eye, reassured me that the ball is already rolling, and I am giving him the benefit of the doubt at this point.

Best of luck, and don't back down, I don't think that you'd forgive yourself if you did and someone was injured as a result!!

I agree, and no way will I back down. Like I told him, I have picked up fingers off the floor, been involved in rescues a couple of times and I am not trained nor paid to be a paramedic! He knows I am dead serious, and I have little reason to believe this will be blown off. This guy was not here when I was first hired and disagreed with the other person.

I also spoke to most of my peers one on one and will continue to preach to them things like "would you play Russian Roulette with 1 bullet and 100 empty chambers? 10000 empty chambers? when the clearly marked lockout point is five steps away", "If I hear you screaming I will come by and put a tourniquet around your neck on my way to clock out and you will never see my arse again..." and so forth and so on... I have got the folks who were taking shortcuts to stop and think and that is what needs to happen.

I will change this place, or not, but I will sleep well knowing I did the best I could. If I was confrontational or heated or demanding, and they fired me, that would not serve my co-workers very well either and I would still worry while I delivered pizzas for a living ...

As for locking a button, I saw one potential interpretation that could allow this as part of LOTO if the main disconnect is in another room and you want to ensure the machine is not running while you go apply another lock there, but locking a button all by itself is illegal in any other case that I could find.

 

[OkiePC]

We have a few different styles of local disconnect switches. We also have banks of disconnects with a lockout cable that passes through all the handles and you only need to use one lock for the bank. Apparently it is possible to throw a disconnect handle back up with the cable through since the cable can bend and move on some of them. Some switches are better than others and can't be bypassed in this way.

In my mind, turning on a disconnect with a cable through it is no less illegal than cutting a lock in order to turn it on. Turning on a locked out disconnect is malicious intent no matter the situation.

My point is, where do we draw the line? Individual locks on each switch? A human guard to stand by an ensure nobody screws with the lockout? If someone wants to kill you, they'll find a way to kill you.

Verify.

After you lock out the disconnect, you should try to close it. (This is just part of the verify step). If you can close it, the verify has failed and you CANNOT complete the lockout. You rewrite the plan, make it foolproof. The very first time we did a group lock, the new (to this plant) safety guy locked out a 200A Siemens disconnect and did not go through both holes. I went behind him and (knowing that no one would be in danger) closed the disconnect handle right past his lock which was still on the fixed part. I called him over and showed him "hey buddy, look what you did..." He thanked me repeatedly and made that double check part of the program, and started telling everyone around us exactly what happened. I bet he said "thank you" six times that day.

Verify. Mechanically and electrically

Another story. 100A Square D stainless steel disconnect in a food plant. I needed to troubleshoot a failed grinder motor. I pulled that handle and it didn't feel right. It was too easy. I popped open the door and the knives were still closed with the handle down! The parts inside these washdown rated pieces are not always stainless and can rust away. They had been washing down this grinder and climbing all over and inside it for who knows how long (which is probably what killed the motor)... Nobody got hurt because a) the aux. contacts still worked and the PLC would not let it start b) nobody pressed the start button.

 

[OkiePC]

In Japan they just stared at me like I was speaking English when I asked where I could lock out the supply circuit before working on a 100A main lug set; their breakers and disconnects simply do not have lockout hardware.

Crazy ain't it? Did you count the missing appendages in the break rooms? Do they have break rooms?

One of the Japanese machines needed a remote panel with 5 buttons added for operators to start and stop the log saw without having to cross a catwalk or reach over a conveyor with a stick. I thought I would need about 10-12 conductors to do this, but all I needed was 7. One for 0V and one for each of the normally open buttons. The stop buttons were all normally open as well as the start. I needed two wires to put the n.c. "e-stop" (using that term loosely incorrectly) in series with the other one which was a PLC input...

 

[MikeW]

Unfortunately, safety has to start at the top and your management is clueless about potential energy and what can happen when it unexpectedly becomes kinetic. We use to be that way until a new building manager instituted a safety program with teeth in 2000. Someone violated a safety procedure, got a cut requiring a trip to get sewn up, and missed a day of work in 2001. He was terminated and we have not had a lost time injury since. Everyone is now like you, what's going to occur WHEN Stuff Happens and I didn't follow the procedures? If one of our worker is unsure of something that he has not been involved with before, he asks around to find someone with an answer and is willing to be the one where the buck will stop. Every safety incident is now followed up with an investigation that is published so everyone gets educated before it happens again.

Paul, I know I'm preaching to the choir, you have been addressing this correctly from my vantage point. Stay on top of it and make others at the job also to become safety believers. I always go by the philosophy that I don't want to meet the spouse at the former employee's wake and have to admit I could have prevented this from happening and took the easy way out. Alternately, ask the boss if he would risk his or one of his kid's life doing the short cut they are planning. OSHA is bare minimum safety unless your site is VPP.

 

[OkiePC]

Well, we had a group lockout for a major overhaul of a rewinder last week and the lockbox coordinator missed the hole in the 200a disconnect handle. He basically hung his padlock on the box, leaving the handle to be freely closed past it if someone had tried. The whole day crew of maintenance and production folks put their locks on the lockbox and worked all day. Not a single one of them verified...obviously...

I came in at 7pm to work my 13 hour shift and put my lock on the group box, made sure the key was in it, then went to verify. FAIL. So I moved my lock to the main disconnect with a hasp so the 4 or five of us affected at night could be actually locked out.

I let all my (peers, maintenance techs) guys know in an email with pictures along with maint. leadership. I wanted to communicate the error and make them all aware of it, in writing, with a little bit of a scolding tone. I was commended for finding the issue and communicating this.

The safety guru came up with the brilliant idea that we should modify the disconnect by drilling a hole in the side of it and putting a bolt through it so when opened, the holes line up and you cannot open it further. Safety guy in his email describing this workorder he has turned in, mentions asking my opinion. My boss thinks it is a great idea and forwards this to me...

I went ballistic in the reply to all. I figured I would get fired for this for sure. It was four thick paragraphs basically calling them idiots for even thinking about turning my disconnects into a IED or timebomb (arc blast). I went way over the top, told them that this modification absolutely would not occur or would be accompanied by my immediate resignation. So, I got called into the office and again, the boss said, "Paul maybe you are not a good fit for this organization" No kidding. I have a clue....and when I don't I take a pause, ask for help...I don't fit in...

After scolding me for being so brash, he went on to ask that I join the safety committee and apologize to the safety guru, since that dude is "new to all this" (news to me) and I hurt his feelings, that I had no right to make him feel stupid, blah blah blah. (Pardon me for craapping on your feelings while I prevent you from killing people...) So, I cordially apologized to the guy, definitely got their attention....and now I am on the safety committee. I think they meet in the afternoon so I suppose they will let me work a 20 hour shift to make the meetings or travel 40 miles two extra times and skip sleep on those meeting days.

I am not sure I can do this stoopid stuff any more. I got off on a bad foot right out of the gate with them. I questioned the fact that we have no lubrication program, no written training for technicians, no library of books (I finally got sick of flying blind and created one for us on a shared PC). The real biggie was when I told the manager "Why does it look like a bomb went off everywhere I look in this shop?" We have junk and tools scattered literally everywhere in the building and I spend half my time keeping machines down just looking for stuff..." We spend most of our morning meetings after a 12 hour day bashing the production people, and every time I offer a solution to their pathetically simple problems (How about we write up a procedure with details so they can't keep fouling it up?) The bosses think I am criticizing them and explain that the production folks are idiots and cannot be trained.

Okay, I have vented, time to revisit monsterdotcom and seriously think about that daycare thingy...I will sleep on this and probably turn in my notice on Monday. I want to change the culture, but by being too critical when I was first hired, they see me as a complainer and cannot even recognize the solutions pouring from my lips... Sometimes you have to walk away. This feels like one of those times.

I honestly do not mind getting paid to do stupid things. Getting paid to work ten times harder than necessary is never a problem. I will voice my opinion if I think we can work smarter, but will happily slave away working circles around younger men all day every day until it becomes dangerous....

 

[realolman]

From what I know of you, which is limited to this forum, I think you are one of the best. I have always respected and admired your attitude and your knowledge.

I think you might be going over the top with this.

I think in general everyone is going over the top in the name of safety. I realize I will probably get blasted for that, but it is what I think.

Knowledge, skills, and abilities are not valued. I think these are the most important part of the job, and IMO is the most important aspect of working safely, but they are ignored in favor of arbitrary rules dreamed up by people who are "new to this" . Who in management is NOT "new to this"? ...they all are... none of them have ever done it. Used to be people got promoted up through the ranks... that doesn't happen anymore. Knowledgeable people don't fit in at the meetings .

Loss of functionality?? what does that matter? ..look how nice it looks. Have you noticed how many third parties who have no function have managed to insert their fingers into the pie? There are some smart people out there all right ... at weaseling money for themselves. "Have them watch this program of videos we have produced and the insurance company will give you a break on your rates." Everyone knows it's a bunch of generalized meaningless nonsense??? ..."That's OK, the insurance company will give you a break on your rates, and we can make some money in an area where we were not making any money before". The insurance company doesn't know anything about it either. None of em could install a receptacle, given a week of all day meetings


All anyone can think of is to make the guy on the floor "wear something" My God, it's hot in there, and we wear so much stuff already ... quit trying to help me ... you're killin me.

At the same time that they're telling me I can't work in a panel without gloves , the panel is full of terminal strips that are "finger safe" ...why would that be necessary? I think wearing gloves in a panel just makes you sloppy. You'll pay attention better without them

We can't work on a piece of equipment that requires 24 v to release brakes so that we can move stuff around to work on it, without a lockout tag out on the main? WHat is the purpose of all these safety relays and safety PLC's?

If I have a point for you, Paul, it is this: It's all a dog and pony show. If you make waves you'll be fired. You seem like an A-1 guy. Take some escotalipram, watch out for yourself, and whoever might be within your immediate circle of influence, and let it go at that. You ain't gonna save the world. A lot of ruthless *******s would be out a lot of money if you did, and they ain't gonna let that happen.

Hopefully, I will retire within the next 9 months, and I loved the work, but I believe the era of skilled tradesmen is over. The ridiculous stuff that these people dream up is making the whole thing unbearable.They're trying to make it so safe that someone who stocked shelves at Wal-Mart yesterday can work on industrial machinery the next. The only reason I can see for that is to make the pay rates similar... and it ain't to raise the pay of the Wal-Mart clerk.