Inverters with non-inverter rated motors

Dave why would anyone turn the speed of a VSD above 60HZ. Torque is proportional to speed and since a VSD is not a generator once you reach top supply voltage at 60HZ you torque curve drops off. It may turn faster when unloaded but will have less performence.

What was the fault with your 1HP motors? Was a short? I have seen recently a similair sized motor 'melt' to describe it becasue it wasnt running fast enough for its cooling fan to be of any use.
 
Oh, we have used a high htz speed to make a 6 pole mtr run at 1725 when we were out of 4 pole mtrs, not a real good idea, but it got the line running @ 2AM on a Sunday morning!! I have also done it on prototype machines to verify what pulley sizes we needed., and on one ball screw drive, I jumped from a normal run of 55 htz up to 110 htz for a fast return stroke... no real load, just a long way to go in very little time.

The 1 Hp motors died from melt down...over - running load was putting the motors into overspeed,drive was configured to insert DC brake voltage = smoke. One of my former jr engineers missed the boat on this simple system, wrong gearbox ratios, wrong sprockets, wrong drive set-up - and the plant tried to do it all while I was on vacation...nice s#$@$# to come back to. But its all better now...

David

beerchug
 
I have had similar experiences as David with motors 1 HP or less burning up on VFD's. I have tried different carrier frequencies and supressors without any luck. It is worth the few extra bucks for an inverter rated motor that is 1 HP or less. I have not had any problem with the larger motors.
 
Hey Dave. Isn't it nice to be needed!!

TFC. There are at least three reasons why it is desireable to run a motor over its base speed. First, by increasing the reduction ratio in the power train to the load thereby shifting the motor speed upward, you improve starting torque and running torque at all speeds below motor base speed. From base speed up to maximum speed, the increased mechanical reduction exactly offsets the reduction in motor torque so the load has the same torque available as before. (This is only logical since the motor is capable of constant hp above its base speed up to a point.)

Second, at all operating points, the motor is turning faster than normal for the same load speed due to the increased mechanical reduction so the motor fan cooling is better. This is especially handy if you have a TEFC or ODP motor and need to operate at the low speed end of the motor's thermal capacity.

Third, speed regulation is somewhat better because the motor sees less torque for all load torques. This results is proportionally less motor slip and therefore better speed regulation. (I am assuming an open-loop V/Hz drive here).

In applications requiring snubber or regen braking, there is a fourth benefit of improved braking efficiency due to motor braking torque being multiplied by the higher mechanical ratio. This is offset a bit by the motor mass decelerating from a higher speed.

I can think of two possible disadvantages. First, if the higher mechanical reduction pushes you into a new gearbox or other expensive power train components, it might not be worth it. Second, if fan noise is a problem, higher speeds will naturally make it worse.

There is a general perception that taking a motor over its base speed is not good for the motor. First, bearings are not an issue as long as you are dealing with motors under 200hp and speeds under 4500rpm. The same bearings that are used in 6 pole and 4 pole motors are used in 2 pole motors of different hp ratings. Second, motor balance can be an issue especially for larger sizes. As a rule, you can take motors in 360 frame and smaller with cast rotors up to 90 Hz (again not to exceed 4500rpm) and larger NEMA frames thru 449 to 75-80 Hz. Wound or built up rotors are not included and must be evaluated on an individual basis. Third, some motors are designed to develop constant hp far into the overspeed range (120Hz is not uncommon) but many others start to fall off rather quickly. You need to know what the motor curve looks like before going overspeed very far. Some motors have a maximum safe speed listed on their nameplate. Do not be tempted to violate that limit.

Note that the discussion above is about taking the motor overspeed, not the load. Any attempt to take a load over its design speed is foolhardy and to be avoided unless you are personally in possession of WRITTEN assurances by the manufacturer that it is safe. Seeing a stamping press flywheel explode from overspeed just once is more than any professional career needs!!
 
We overspeed 2-pole motors direct coupled to centrifugal blowers on many designs. If you are just acouple of tenths of a psi short on pressure a 10% overspeed will get you there without jumping to a larger size machine. It is also useful for getting capacity in those rare days where you need full design flow, but avoids over specifying the equipment to cover the rare 1% or 2% times when everything is working against you.

Like anything else, you have to check into the all devices in the system and make sure you are not going outside safe ranges. We check into the blower's and the motor's rotors and bearings (hardly ever a problem), and we set the drive maximum speed to 90% of the machinery's first cricical speed (vibration resonance for you EE's). We make sure the motor can provide the horsepower required at the max operating speed, and the VFD can provide the current required at max load. When you do it right, it is good engineering, as opposed to trying to get by on the cheap or over specifying equipment "just in case".
 
KMitch-
That is exactly what is happening with me- the motors are
a "rolled steel type" ,very cheap.
They are also 1 HP and below.
Did you end up just replacing the motors with inverter duty type?
BTW- these do not run continous- they are not even getting warm.
 
TimeFluxCap said:
Dave why would anyone turn the speed of a VSD above 60HZ. Torque is proportional to speed and since a VSD is not a generator once you reach top supply voltage at 60HZ you torque curve drops off. It may turn faster when unloaded but will have less performence.

What was the fault with your 1HP motors? Was a short? I have seen recently a similair sized motor 'melt' to describe it becasue it wasnt running fast enough for its cooling fan to be of any use.

We run inverters at speeds above 100Hz on many conveyor systems, however on the same conveyor we may also vary speeds to bellow 25Hz. We do however monitor motor temperature etc to make sure that the drive can handle the application.
 
JRW,
Yes we replaced them with inverter rated motors. I think on the ones we replaced the price difference was about 30 bucks. Before we got the inverter rated motors in we replaced 3 motors in a month. When I left this company the inverter rated motor had been running for 4 years with no other changes.
Keith
 
Dick
Seeing a stamping press flywheel explode

I was not in the area but witnessed the aftermath destruction of a flywheel/pulley at high speed at my plant. On commissioning a high pressure condensor pump was turned off the suction and discharge valves werent isolated. The back pressure of high pressure steam forced it run reverse direction and witnesses heard a whistling "turbine" like sound until exploded hurling debris and shrapnel up to 150m. The chunk that flew the 150m had enough force in it still at that distance to put a huge dent in a stockpile bin that it collided with. Very, very scary stuff!

Also was my previous statement
Torque is proportional to speed and since a VSD is not a generator once you reach top supply voltage at 60HZ you torque curve drops off.
applicable to centrifugal pumps? I have been working on this principle for virtually all my trade. Hope I havent told people to many bull...
 
Ron, I read the whole paper you asked about and find it to be very responsibly written. In my view, there is no "snake oil".

My only observation is that the paper favors special duty inverter motors a bit more than general application experience indicates is appropriate. There have been significant design improvements in commodity grade AC motors in recent times that permit their use on an increasingly broad range of applications. Also, recent improvements in sensorless vector performance by a few leading manufacturers have widened even further the successful use of commodity motors.

Unfortunately, their use requires a large amount of judgement and this is hard to describe or teach with any precision. The result is overspecifying and that is not all bad. Some of us "old heads" can play it a little closer to the edge and be comfortable with it but most cannot and should not.

It is handy tho when I need to "steal" a job from the competition!!

TFC, you must be careful to distinquish between available motor torque and load torque. Load torque is whatever the load requires to do its work over its speed range plus whatever accel and decel torques are needed to change speed. Clearly, the drive-motor system must be able to supply at least that level of torque at all speeds to get the necessary performance in the load.

Available motor torque is another thing entirely. From motor base speed (either 50 or 60Hz normally) down to zero speed, available motor torque is defined by the ratio of the drive output voltage divided by the drive output frequency--thus the term "volts per Hz". Most drives give you the option of altering this linear ratio so it, for example, follows a "squared" curve from base speed down to zero speed. This would limit torque to the same curve over the speed range and is intended for loads that have such torque/speed curves like fans and centrifugal pumps. Otherwise, with a linear curve, the motor will have available the same torque from base speed down to zero or near zero.

You can also change the slope of the V/Hz curve by altering the voltage setting at base speed. Normally, if you enter 460V and 60Hz in the drive software for motor data, the drive will automatically interpret that as the highest voltage point on the curve. If, on the same motor, you were to change the software entry to 460V and 80Hz, the V/Hz curve would rise more slowly reaching 230V at 40Hz, 345V at 60Hz, and 460V at 80Hz. All of the above would alter the available torque from the motor.

Up to this point, I have only been referring to continuous torque available from the motor. Normally, short term overload torques also need to be examined. At least for NEMA Design B motors, short term overload torque is available up to about 220% of nameplate. To get this, somewhere around 250% overload current would need to be supplied by the drive. Depending on the size rating of the drive, you may only have 110% (usually called variable torque rated or normal duty rated) or 150% (usually called constant torque rated or heavy duty rated) overload current available thus limiting what you can get from the motor. You may, of course, deliberately oversize the drive to get all 220% overload torque from the motor but that is not normally done for cost reasons. You must also be mindful of thermal issues in the drive and motor when you do this.

Above motor base speed, assuming constant full voltage applied to the motor, the continuous and overload torques begin to drop off as a function of the inverse of the percent of overspeed. By this I mean that, at 110% of base speed available torque will be reduced by 100/110 or .91, at 125% it would be 100/125 or .8, at 150% it would be 100/150 or .67, and so on.

Hope this helps clarify some of these issues.
 
Mr DickDV...Thank you for explaining all of that in a way even I can understand!! And now a lot of what I see happening while 'playing' w/ VFD's and motors makes sense. Thanks again.

David

beerchug
 
I have installed serveral vfds and inverters in our feed mill on motors that (as far as maintenance records and the blueprints tell have not been changed since day one 33 years ago). I havenot lost one of these motors without some other cause such as some forien object in the auger or a bearing locking up ect. I must say that on the other hand these are all motor that we speed up to about 100 htz. We have several with new motors that we run at 35 to 50 htz and are replacing motor monthly.
 

Similar Topics

Hi All, I have a FR-V520-3.7K inverter here and I need to locate the software for it. Googling say "FR-SW1-SETUP-WE" is the original software...
Replies
7
Views
3,377
Anyone using or used the Automation Direct Durapulse GS3 series AC drives? Been using a lot allen bradley powerflex 525 drives for basic fabric...
Replies
11
Views
2,961
I am trying to sort out documents for on an offer including PLC and inverters with Microsoft Visio. How can I find block diagram stencils? I do...
Replies
7
Views
24,358
Hi, I'm looking for some advice to connect Yaskawa V1000 to my controller by EtherCat. I'm using SI7-ES3 card. I already establish a connection...
Replies
0
Views
1,692
Hello to everyone.I have the screen HMIGTO 5310 and PLC M221 and i want to communicate with (5 INVERTERS).The protocol i want to use is...
Replies
1
Views
1,387
Back
Top Bottom