Motor guru's I need your help...

I agree with most of what you said Dick, but from the test results I've seen allowable lead length for the motors is a function of voltage, carrier frequency, and motor power - you can get away with a lot longer leads on small motors than on the 400 hp units Russ is working with. And, although motor load is going to be pretty light at reduced speed for a centrifugal load compared to constant torque loads, bearing losses and such mean that the theorteical power as a function of speed cubed can't be counted on 100%. Besides, there are a lot of wierd interactions going on with Volts/Hz ratios, power factor, reactive (magnetizing) currents, and such. I'd be reluctant to say at 1/4 speed you are only going to generate 1/64 of full load heat! If I can, I like to see winding RTDs on large motors so I can measure actual temperature and not rely on secondary indicators like amps and such.

I absolutely agree that motor amps are a totally inadequate way to measure anything but motor amps! Most VFDs can display and/or give an analog output of actual kW, and that is what I would use for determining motor power. It is much simpler to read "real time" and continuously compared to slip.

And you aren't kidding about the snake oil - don't get me started on IEEE-519 or example!
 
Russ

First off.. thank you for the help. Here is the following data that I got off of the nameplate. A few of the items (which I’ve marked) I couldn’t be certain if they were either a: 1, lower case L, or a straight line |…

Code:
Weg  W21 Severe Duty

Frame 586/7T
Hp(Kw) 400 (300)
RPM 1790
Encl TEFC Type ET 
Pr(or maybe P| or P1) 0.89
IP 55
S.F. 1.15
Insl CL F
(delta symbol) | or (delta symbol) 1 80K
Code H
Hz 60
Nema Nom Eff 94.5%
¾ Load Eff. 93.6%
V 460
A 447
Duty Cont.

Then, in the upper right hand corner of the nameplate was the following:
Class | (or 1) div 2
Groups B, C, and D
CL | (or 1) Zone 2 ||C (or 11C) T3C

Thermistor data:
Max 30V
155C
Hope this helps. By the way the Robicon drives are new. They are the 454GT series (but configured intitially to run a 350Hp motor). So their variable torque current is 460A max.
 
Motor-Drive Discussion

OK, Russ. Good information. Thanks. I'm sorry to keep deluging you with questions but, if I was standing next to you in your facility, I would have to ask the same questions anyway. So here goes!

First, I still need to know about the fan. Is it a squirrel cage, axial, is the motor direct coupled (it sounded like it in above posts) or is there a belt-pulley stage in there somewhere?

Second, the mention of hazardous atmosphere rating on the nameplate concerns me. Is the motor in a rated hazard area (explosion proof)?

Third, are you able to see and change the drive parameters? If so, what options does the drive give you for a non-linear V/Hz curve. Many drives will give you a variable torque curve or even several different curves. Check your instruction manual and let me know, please. While you're looking in there, see if you can find a parameter for increasing starting and low speed torque, sometimes called "torque boost" or something similar. It is used to add extra voltage at low speed to compensate for motor winding resistance and increase current and torque at the bottom of the speed range.

Fourth, I have fairly long experience with Weg as well as numerous other manufacturers and you certainly don't have a "junk" motor there. The level of knowledge and service you are getting from the local Weg reps may make it seem that way but, in my view, this is a good motor for the application. Severe Duty, 1.15SF, Class F insulation, and an incredibly tight design (only 10rpm slip), plus the thermocouple option tell me that this is no wimpy motor. I think I know where this discussion is going and that will involve some motor modifications but I will hold on to my comments until I get further information.

Fifth, regarding the last post, I only said that fan or pump HP would fall to 1/64th at 1/4 speed. It is correct that other machinery and friction losses may increase this somewhat at low speeds but that is usually solved easily with a little low speed torque boost.

Finally, Russ, how did you measure the motor amps you mentioned earlier. Did you use a clamp-on meter or did you get the numbers from the drive readout?

Sorry, again, for all the questions but I intend to solve this for you and really need the info to do a responsible job.
 
Russ

Hi Dick,
I'll answer some of your questions now, a few will require a bit further investigation.

1) The fan... I know it is a Mas fan, direct coupled via a Faulk coupling. I'm fairly positive it is a squirrel cage, but I'll confirm the specifics for you tomorrow (including designed pressure drops).


2)The motor is not in a hazardous area. It is outside of an aluminum lost foam casting line (it drives a fan that ventilates the line and removes sand fines). There is no explosive hazard. There is dust.


3)I can see and change the drive parameters. I'll have to check for the non-linear V/Hz options. Robicon offers a "special feature" for their drives that boosts the low speed torque, but it costs extra. There might be some alternate setups that will compensate for the low speed torque.

4)Thank you for the vote of confidence on the motor. I'm still concerned about why there were so many overheating situations (and the two phase-to-ground failures). Why the AB 1335A supposedly works with these motors?
Do you think that by boosting the low torque voltage it will reduce the heat build-up in the motor?


Most of the time I would read the display (which also can give voltage, freq, rpm(estimate I guess), and Kw. Though clamps have been placed on the three phases going to the motor. The actual amps are just a bit higher than the displayed reading.



Thanks again,
Russ
 
Motor-Drive Discussion

Thanks, Russ. I'm going to proceed here assuming the fan is a typical variable torque machine. Don't burden yourself with further investigation on its characteristic curve.

The reason I asked about how you got your current readings is that I hoped you had NOT used a clamp-on ammeter on the motor leads. Most meters need a sine wave or close to a sine wave to retain their accuracy and the motor leads are far from a sine wave due to the chopped pulses from the PWM style drive output. Unless you use a true RMS reading ammeter, motor lead measurements will not be close to correct.

Regarding low speed motor voltage, my concern is the opposite--I suspect that the voltage at low speed is HIGHER than necessary. That's why I would like you to examine the drive parameters for a variable torque V/Hz output curve and a torque boost setting.

Am I correct is taking your 168 Amp reading at 25Hz and 330Amp reading at 49Hz as applying to these 400hp motors or were they for the 350's.
 
Motor-Drive Discussion

Just two other hopefully simple questions, Russ. Are the thermocouples or thermistors hooked up to provide motor overload protection? If they are, then the drive software overload calculation can be turned off since it is estimating motor temperature very conservatively. Use of the thermocouples or thermistors is far preferred since they measure actual winding temperatures directly.

Also, would you please check the motor amps when running at the 15Hz standby speed.

Thanks
 
Russ

Dick,
Because of the overtemping issues.. the standby mode frequency is now 25.9Hz-26.0Hz... at that point the current stays between 121-127A.. for the most part staying right around 125A.
The thermistor on each motor is hooked up, and serves as a discrete input to the plc, if it goes low everything shuts down. At this moment on line 2 the fan is running at 92% (55.8Hz, 340-380A though for the most part staying between 360-370). The fan bearing temps (not the motor) are wheelside= 126F, motorside=119F. The inlet temp (what the fan is seeing is currently 297F). Inlet pressure is -14.6 to -15.4 (averaging right at -15.0"WC). the discharge pressure is +14.5"WC.
The other unit is in standby mode and that units static inlet pressure is -7.5"WC, while the fans discharge is +2.0"WC.
My understanding is that the fan is rated for a 23-25" differential across the fan.
The vfd is controlled by a 4-20ma signal coming from the plc.. whose fan output cv is controlled by a pressure based pid reading an analog input from a pressure transducer.



Thanks again,
Russ
 
I'd also like to express my thanks that you guys kept this question/problem on this open forum. I have very little experience with VFD's but I remember designing a system several years ago that included a progressive cavity pump run by a VFD. The vendor told me that if I could to use the next largest motor frame size to prevent overheating and try to keep the minimum frequency above 25 Hz. I wonder why the motor manufacturers don't use an independant motor/fan in these applications, I've seen them many times on DC motors. I know this reply isn't very useful but on the factory floor minimum designs are often inadequate.
 
Motor-Drive Discussion--Lengthy!

Ok, Russ, here goes! First, some analysis and then some conclusions.

Let's start with analysing the load on the motor remembering that the motor lead amps are the vector sum of magnetizing amps and torque-producing amps. Nameplate data gives us 447 total amps full load and magnetizing amps on this motor will be about 125 amps. Solving for full load torque amps gives us 432 torque producing amps. This means that at no shaft load (0 ft-lbs) there is 0 torque producing amps and at rated load (1200 ft-lbs) there will be 432 torque producing amps.

Russ tells us that at 56 Hz, the total amps is 370. Again, solving the vector equation remembering that magnetizing amps are still 125, we find that there are 352 torque producing amps. 352/432 is .81 which tells us that the motor is producing 81% of its rated torque. From this we can conclude that the motor is not overloaded at this speed and load.

Russ also tells us that at 26 Hz, the total amps is 125. Since this is essentially the same as the magnetizing amps, we can conclude that the motor is developing almost no torque which would be normal with a fan or centrifugal pump load. (It must be that the magnetizing amps on this motor are slightly less which would leave a few amps left to produce a small amount of torque). But certainly we can conclude that the motor is very lightly loaded at this speed.

From the above analysis, we can safely say that overload is not the problem in this application.

Next, let's look at temperature data. The nameplate states Class F insulation and also mentions thermistors set for 155 degrees C. Checking the Electrical Engineering Handbook, we find that Class F insulation is rated for 155 degrees C so this matches. Now, 155 degrees C is mighty hot! That's 311 degrees F! That's right, the windings can withstand temperatures up to 311 degrees F. A common rule of thumb among motor people is to figure that this will permit up to about 180 degrees F on the outside skin of the motor. That is still plenty hot and the touch test is no good at this temp. 150 degrees F is too hot to hold your hand on. Now, it may be that these motors are judged to be too hot by the "hand" method or by the thermistor method. (Russ didn't say how he concluded the motors were too hot). I suspect that the motors are very hot in an Alabama plant environment but not too hot. Certainly, they are not too hot because of any overload condition or lack of cooling due to slow shaft speed.

Next, let's look at the phase-ground failures. Winding failures due to reflected waves from drive-generated pulses almost always cause phase-to-phase failures and very rarely phase-to-ground. When a new motor fails phase-to-ground it almost always is a winding defect and I suspect both failures were of that type. Any good motor shop can analyse a slot insulation failure to determine whether it was temperature induced or something else. Weg actually should be able to tell you this if you press them. From the above I conclude that the phase-ground winding failures were not caused by the drive system and that motor lead reactors or reflected wave filters are probably not required.

Finally let's look at the bearing failure. In my view, this is the big issue and needs to be addressed immediately. It is a well developed fact that motors in NEMA frames 400 and larger and rated 250 HP and larger can and often do suffer from currents being induced into the rotor shaft. (Tom Jenkins mentioned this earlier). This current has no place to go in a standard construction motor and ends up building up enough voltage in the bearings until the arc punctures the lubricating film and blows thru, in the process pitting the race and the ball or roller. It doesn't take much of this before the bearing goes straight to catastrophic failure. Russ' motor has done that and I am sure that, in his 586 frame motor, shaft currents are the cause. A good motor shop and certainly Weg can identify this type of bearing failure by examining the failed bearing.

Now, the conclusions. First, to solve the bearing problems, the motors must be modified with either insulated bearings or a shaft-to-frame grounding brush system. The preferred way on a new motor in this HP range is insulated bearings but that would require pulling the motors and modifying the end bells. For operating motors, it is often easier to install a slip ring on the motor shaft and a carbon brush assembly that grounds the slip ring and shaft to the frame. This can usually be field installed. You will find that most large reputable motor shops will be able to do this--the mom-and-pop variety will not. You don't really get a choice on this one, Russ. You will eat bearings and maybe even crash a rotor until this is dealt with. And I wouldn't necessarily call this Weg's fault since the motor is a general purpose design. ("Inverter duty" gets even fuzzier in over-NEMA motors)

Second, I would doublecheck that the motors are really running too hot. If your thermistor system is properly calibrated, depend on it rather than any kind of touchy-feely approach. (Russ, if the thermistors actually are indicating overtemp, let me know. We may have to rethink this). It is very well possible that bearing deterioration is, even now, causing additional heat. If you have the ability to do vibration analysis, you may want to take a look at the motor bearings. They may be leaving you as we speak!

Third, the drive may give you the option of several different carrier frequencies. Sometimes, this will be disquised with names like "low noise" or other code words. In your industrial application, it is best to select the lowest carrier frequency the drive offers. It is easier on motor insulation and further reduces any chance of reflected wave trouble. Check with Robicon (good luck!) if you don't see it in their user manual.

Finally, if this in some way doesn't make sense to you, Russ, let me know. I've tried to operate on the data presented but, if something important has been overlooked, please say so.

And, for everyone else. How'd I do? Still think I'm trying to hide something? (Ok, Ok, I've learned my lesson. Maybe I should read the rules!)
 
To Tomneth

While most pumps are variable torque machines, a progressive cavity pump is not. It is constant torque right down to zero speed.

The vendor sounds a little thin on AC drive-motor applications. In fact, AC motors with auxiliary blowers and other cooling schemes that don't use a shaft fan are becoming as common as DC motors equipt like that. He probably didn't have one to sell you! That's all!
 
Well DickDV in my opinion you've done an excellent job here in gathering the information, analyzing the problem and presenting conclusions. Good luck to Russ and thanks for spending the time on this forum.
 
Dick,

Ya did good, boy!

Thanks for keeping it on-board. I learned a few things.

I tend to agree with your bearing-current description.

I have had to replace many bearings in conveyor-belt systems because of ordinary, rub-your-shoes-on-the-carpet Static Electricity!

It's amazing how destructive that static stuff can be. It is also amazing how vulnerable bearings are.

I've run into a few Phase-to-Ground faults. It some it appeared that maybe the seized bearing happened first, then the rotor took a walk into the stator - causing the phase winding to be shorted to ground.

Yeah, these were some catastrophic failures.
 

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