On the subject of inrush current

Vic,

If you go back to the loop theorem from which the equations are derived, for an R-L circuit you get:

E = i*R +L(Di/Dt)

This is what I meant when I said the same formulas apply whether the circuit is DC or AC. When the circuit is AC, then the voltage is no longer constant, but varies by the function E*Sin(wt) where w is the frequency.
 
Steve has it right!

I have posted a link to an example of current response to a voltage input through a RL circuit. Note that a DC circuit has a much higher frequency components in the step jump, compared to a sine wave, so the increase in current will normally be higher than in a sine wave. A cosine wave that starts at the highest voltage would rise in a similar way to a DC step jump. You can see that the current rise quite quickly in response to a DC step jump. This is very quick compared to a 60 hz sine or cosine wave.

RL Circuit response to a step input and sine wave.

Note, this assumes the inductor does not have an iron core. An Iron core changes everything when it saturates.
 
Steve

I misunderstood which equations you were referring to. I thought you were referring to the equations for calculating the instantaneous current at a time t after the switch is closed. Although, as you say, they are derived from the same general equation, when you include V*sin(wt) and the instantaneous phase angle of the voltage in the AC equation instead of just V in the DC equation, you get very different equations when solving the general equation for i. Peter’s post has shown this.
 
Vic,

I am wondering how your graphs would look if
you had not placed a 0.2 ohm resistor in series
with the DC coil?

There's a small discussion, on another forum, about
pulling DC coils while they are energized. I researched
my limited library and found this theory.

A DC coil/solenoid will first draw current limited only by
the resistance of the wire. As the magnetic field
builds the armature gets pulled up into the coil. This
effects the field and reduces the coil current to a holding
level.

What are your thoughts about this?

Any chance you could repeat your test without that resistor?
 
good point

In a dc ckt the resistance at start is the wire or any resistors in line, coils (or any inductors) are not immediately "felt" in a circuit....ie TIME (once again is involved) is needed before an inductor (or capacitor) has an effect.

Technically (theory etc) this includes AC also, the only difference may be "HOW MUCH" time.

When testing inductors or capacitors and the lead/lag theorem its not appropriate to add resistance to the circuit...a resistor offers a constant at startup.

This is my 2 cents worth, y'all know you have gotten way over my head.
 
Allen

The .2 ohm resistor was added to give me a way of displaying the current on the scope, as I didn't have a DC current probe that would accurately read currents in the 1 amp range. The voltage across the resistor is proportional to the current in the circuit. The resistance of the wire in the coil was 18 ohms so adding .2 ohms to it is approximately a 1% change and will have almost no effect on the operation of the circuit. As the temperature of the coil changes due to operation, the wire resistance will change far more than 1%.

Your explanation is not correct.

The resistance of the wire in the coil determines the final or steady state current. Steady state current = coil voltage / coil resistance (Ohms Law). When voltage is first applied to a coil, the changing current produces a changing magnetic flux that induces an emf such that it opposes the change in current and the current builds up slowly. The armature in the coil effects the inductance of the coil and hence how fast the current will build up. When the current reaches the final level, determined by the voltage and the resistance of the wire, the current is no longer changing and the inductance of the coil has no effect.

The above is shown on the scope traces. One major division on channel 1 = .05 volts / .2 ohms = .25 amps. You can see that the final current level is just over 5 divisions or 1.25 amps. The calculated value is 24 volts / 18.2 ohms = 1.3 amps.

Vic
 
It is the time, it is the rate of change in the current that matters.

I updated the previous link with a new one. I removed most of the math. I am now showing how the in rush current changes with different values of resistance in series with the inductor. I used a 1 volt step jump.

RL Circuit response to a 1 volt step in voltage.

In a dc ckt the resistance at start is the wire or any resistors in line, coils (or any inductors) are not immediately "felt" in a circuit....ie TIME (once again is involved) is needed before an inductor (or capacitor) has an effect.

Technically (theory etc) this includes AC also, the only difference may be "HOW MUCH" time.

No, no. The inductor is immediately "felt" any time the voltage changes. See the graphs. There is a difference between a lag and a delay. A delay implies a dead time like putting values in a FIFO before using them. A delay can also because by a non-linearity such a one caused by the delay caused due to a force building up to overcome friction. A lag or lead is a function of rate or frequency. In the case of an RL circuit there is only a time constant and NO shift register or non-linearities.
 
Last edited:
Vic, what a relief that you have come along with some solid data on the DC part of this question. I've been silently gnawing my tongue here after reading some of the earlier posts on DC in inductors.

I've always viewed an inductor as a series device that always works to keep the current constant--if at zero, then zero, if at some value, then that value. It does this by building and collapsing its internal magnetic field. If it has an iron core, its capacity to build magnetic field is greatly increased but any coil, even air cores, work this same way.

Your first scope trace shows this as a voltage is applied to a coil at zero amps. The coil holds back the full level of current for a time as it builds its field. Once the circuit resistance becomes the current limiting factor, the field holds steady at a high level and the current holds steady at a high level. Under these steady state conditions, the circuit doesn't "see" the inductive part of the coil.

Your second trace isn't really applicable here because the iron core was moving generating a new voltage but the third trace is to be compared with the first except that there is now an iron core instead of an air core. The currents are similar with the time it takes to build the much larger field being longer. But, as before, once the field is fully built and the circuit resistance limits the current, it is as if the coil wasn't there.

In fact, as demonstrated, coils are used to avoid inrush in DC circuits.

The part that isn't shown by your traces, however, is what happens when the circuit opens and the current is supposed to fall immediately to zero. Remember that the nature of an inductor is to try to maintain the current the same, whatever it is. As soon as the circuit is opened, the coil uses the stored energy in its field to keep the current flowing at whatever steady state level it was at. The coil will exhaust all of its stored energy in this attempt.

Now, those of you with a calculator close by: if voltage = current times resistance and this coil is trying to push a finite amount of current across an open circuit (someone opened the switch, remember!), that would be a number times infinity which, in my world is very large! Since the inductor knows nothing but to keep the current flow constant and has no sense of voltage whatever, it will continue to increase the voltage across the gap until either it, or some insulation somewhere, or the switch contacts arc over. We've all been victimized by the stored energy in DC inductors this way, I would think. That is why, on DC coils, a flyback diode is normally installed so this current simply recirculates around the coil and no arc voltage surge occurs.

Vic, you might just want to reconnect your test rig and show us some traces of what happens when the circuit is opened. I would caution you to properly protect your test equipment from overvoltage.

Thanks again, Vic.
 
This thread and many like it, are what makes the
internet such a VALUABLE RESOURCE.

Thanks Vic for your patient replies and to all
who started and participated in this thread.

It sure has helped me abandon some old ideas!

I'll be scratching out that wrong info about
DC coils in one of my books.
 

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