OT: Coronavirus do you care?

[pturmel]

According to the CDC there have been 12,000 deaths since 1990 from vaccines, from their numbers it was averaging just over 150 a year, this past year was/is 6,887 but I would expect that because of the number of vaccines given.

Just the annual flu vaccine in the U.S. reaches some 200 million doses. And there's a lot of childhood and young adult vaccines administered, too. If we vaccinate everyone in the U.S. with a two-part vaccine like Pfizer, that would be ~700 million. So if Covid vaccines were remotely normal, a jump of 3x or 4x or so in VAERS would be reasonable. Not a jump of 40x.


Yes, VAERS data quality is not great, but it exists because it has been useful in the past. Where there's smoke, there's often fire.

 

[Steve Bailey]

Steve is right now but he wasn't a few months ago.

But neither I nor pturmel posted on the subject a few months ago.

 

[pturmel]

But neither I nor pturmel posted on the subject a few months ago.

I wasn't a member here then. But I've been too busy this summer to pay much attention to Covid. NetNathan's comment the other day caused me to reflect on my experiences and the development of my opinion on the topic. My disgust with the powers that be has been pretty steady since last summer.


The Delta variant is a real hazard, but nowhere near the impact of the first spike. But the fear promoted in the general population far exceeds the reality. While not a healthcare professional, I endorse the Great Barrington Declaration. Nothing since its promulgation has changed my mind, and it is as applicable post-vaccine as pre-vaccine.


Yes, there have been tragedies from Covid among those who shouldn't have been at serious risk, but good public policy is made from the overall picture, not the fear-mongers.

 

[NetNathan]

I wasn't a member here then. But I've been too busy this summer to pay much attention to Covid. NetNathan's comment the other day caused me to reflect on my experiences and the development of my opinion on the topic. My disgust with the powers that be has been pretty steady since last summer.


The Delta variant is a real hazard, but nowhere near the impact of the first spike. But the fear promoted in the general population far exceeds the reality. While not a healthcare professional, I endorse the Great Barrington Declaration. Nothing since its promulgation has changed my mind, and it is as applicable post-vaccine as pre-vaccine.


Yes, there have been tragedies from Covid among those who shouldn't have been at serious risk, but good public policy is made from the overall picture, not the fear-mongers.

The other side of that declaration...
https://theconversation.com/5-failings-of-the-great-barrington-declarations-dangerous-plan-for-covid-19-natural-herd-immunity-148975

 

[pturmel]

The other side of that declaration...
https://theconversation.com/5-faili...lan-for-covid-19-natural-herd-immunity-148975

Heh. Dueling experts. I generally side with practitioners in the real world over ivory tower academics and regulators. The former depend on results for patients. The latter depend on having something/someone to regulate or dictate. Kind of like trusting operators, technicians, and engineers over bean counters, salesmen, and professors. At need, reading published papers and looking at methods provides useful clarity.

 

[Firejo]

By April last year, it was already clear that lockdowns and mask mandates were not working. The northeast, where those policies were most extreme, had and still has the highest per-capita death rates in the U.S. We now know that Covid-19 is almost entirely transmitted by aerosols, which go right through anything less than a tightly-sealed N95 mask, and float for hours in poorly ventilated indoor spaces. Study after study showed no significant transmission from surfaces, or while outdoors. And no significant reduction in transmission where mask compliance was highest. The MIT study completed early in 2021 is the gold standard on this. Making people wear cloth or simple surgical masks is utterly worthless, and a hazard for people with breathing problems. Such masks do not protect you from Covid, and do not protect those around you.

Sorry, not accurate. Stating that the masks don’t work because some area where people wore masks still have significant outbreaks is very shallow logic. The simple reply to that statement is “how do you know that it wouldn’t have been much worse if they didn’t wear masks?”

Masks capture the fine droplets when you exhale. Yes, there is plenty of air that goes around the mask when you exhale but that air first hits the mask which is when the fine droplets are captured and then some of the air makes a sharp turn and exits out the side. That’s why surgeons and operating room staff wear the same types of masks. They aren’t protecting themselves, they are protecting the patient who is at high risk of getting an infection because of an opening in the skin.

The short reply is study after (reputable) study has shown (for years now) that multilayer cloth masks are very effective at capturing the fine droplets when you exhale and a lot of airborne illnesses can be found in the fine droplets including Sar-cov-2 (the virus that causes Covid-19).

Below are two paragraphs from a CDC publication that talks about masks.
If you want to read the entire publication go here: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-

briefs/masking-science-sars-cov2.html

Source Control to Block Exhaled Virus

Multi-layer cloth masks block release of exhaled respiratory particles into the environment, along with the microorganisms these particles carry. Cloth masks not only effectively block most large droplets (i.e., 20-30 microns and larger) but they can also block the exhalation of fine droplets and particles (also often referred to as aerosols) smaller than 10 microns, which increase in number with the volume of speech and specific types of phonation. Multi-layer cloth masks can both block up to 50-70% of these fine droplets and particles and limit the forward spread of those that are not captured. Upwards of 80% blockage has been achieved in human experiments that have measured blocking of all respiratory droplets, with cloth masks in some studies performing on par with surgical masks as barriers for source control.

Filtration for Wearer Protection

Studies demonstrate that cloth mask materials can also reduce wearers’ exposure to infectious droplets through filtration, including filtration of fine droplets and particles less than 10 microns. The relative filtration effectiveness of various masks has varied widely across studies, in large part due to variation in experimental design and particle sizes analyzed. Multiple layers of cloth with higher thread counts have demonstrated superior performance compared to single layers of cloth with lower thread counts, in some cases filtering nearly 50% of fine particles less than 1 micron . Some materials (e.g., polypropylene) may enhance filtering effectiveness by generating triboelectric charge (a form of static electricity) that enhances capture of charged particles while others (e.g., silk) may help repel moist droplets and reduce fabric wetting and thus maintain breathability and comfort. In addition to the number of layers and choice of materials, other techniques can improve wearer protection by improving fit and thereby filtration capacity. Examples include but are not limited to mask fitters, knotting-and-tucking the ear loops of medical procedures masks, using a cloth mask placed over a medical procedure mask, and nylon hosiery sleeves.

 

[VAN]

Making people wear cloth or simple surgical masks is utterly worthless, and a hazard for people with breathing problems. Such masks do not protect you from Covid, and do not protect those around you.

Kinda funny, "masks don't work", next statement "masks make it hard to breath from all the air its blocking by not working".

 

[NetNathan]

Masks were never supposed to be 100% effective.
Their purpose is too limit the amount of "viral load" you ingest, to reduce the contamination to a level that will hopefully keep you out of the hospital if you get sick.

 

[pturmel]

Kinda funny, "masks don't work", next statement "masks make it hard to breath from all the air its blocking by not working".

Blocking air is bad for breathing. Blocking aerosols is needed to make a significant impact on Covid transmission. Rather independent effects, it turns out. Anything less that an N95 mask is effectively transparent to aerosols. And any mask not tightly worn simply redirects some of the aerosols up or out the sides, where they float for hours.


Go read the MIT study. Not just its politically correct recommendations, but the whole thing.



If you are serious about masks, try on an N95 mask. Make it tight enough so nothing escapes around the edges when you exhale. That is wearing it like a medical professional--effective against aerosols. You tell me if your breathing is impacted. And if anything is escaping around any other kind of mask (because you've plugged it with large droplets in the first few minutes), what do you think you're really accomplishing? Besides impeding oxygen flow to your own brain?


Oh, snap! (As my son used to say.)

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

No one is paying attention. Sure masks will slow the spread but they will only slow the spread. Vaccines will slow down the spread to but now it is known that vaccinated people can still carry the CCP-virus. Vaccinated people can get the CCP-virus. Eventually we will have to come to grips with the fact the virus is here to stay like the flu and the common cold.


Given that nothing new appears, no delta variant vaccine or similar, I think my predictions will be accurate. I have been keeping track on an Excel spread sheet since mid June of last year. 900K more people will die of the CCP-virus.



Any body that say they are following the science are liars as are the politicians.



Virii, viruses are not alive and can't be killed with anti biotics.


The CCP-virus is with us to stay. The politician can't stop the inevitable. The CDC is full of BS. The CDC hasn't been right yet.
Neither have the politicians.

I think it is worth while to wear a mask. I did get double vaccinated but I support those that think it is all BS. I curse myself for not getting tested to see if I am naturally immune to the CCP-Virus before I got vaccinated. I would really like to raise my middle finger to all those that say I must be vaccinated when it wasn't necessary.


Israel has done a study that showed that those that are immune naturally or having survived the CCP-virus are 13 times less likely to get sick from the virus again.


However, the virus isn't alive and so far no one has figured out how to kill/destroy it without doing damage to the host.


So far I have been lucky. I don't even get flu shots even though I am supposedly high risk for the flu. I have only had a bad case of the flu about 3 times in my life and I am 68 YO with other negative health factors.

 

[DaveW]

Heh. Dueling experts. I generally side with practitioners in the real world over ivory tower academics and regulators. The former depend on results for patients. The latter depend on having something/someone to regulate or dictate. Kind of like trusting operators, technicians, and engineers over bean counters, salesmen, and professors. At need, reading published papers and looking at methods provides useful clarity.

I think practitioners would tell you to put a mask on and get the shot.

 

[DaveW]

Here in LA County, we are at 67% fully vaccinated for 12+ and 82% for 65+. Vaccine is not 100% effective but for the majority that got it, it gives them a good fighting chance. My wife works at one of the larger hospital in the county and since the Delta surge, their ICU is currently at 90% capacity filled with mostly covid patients of which 95% are unvaccinated. Most who caught it do not wear masks. Of the remaining vaccinated breakthroughs, none were from Moderna, a few were from Pfizer with 9 months after the shot, and you can guess about J&J. People with serious heart and lungs problems are not admitted because they need the beds and are understaffed.
What's funny is that people are afraid of the vaccine but will take stuff like horse deworming medication.

 

[cardosocea]

The CCP-virus is with us to stay.

This is, somehow, what no one seems to want to accept and the first step towards returning to a more normal way of life.

I had an argument the other day with someone against removing restrictions because we're in a pandemic, but when I asked what is the point over which a pandemic virus moves to endemic, I got a blank stare... as if people can't think and make decisions over their acceptable level of risk and more importantly, ask loudly why is no one defining what that moment is and how it'll look like.

I see Covid as something a bit more than a flu at the moment... but if tomorrow someone find a medicine that speeds up the cure, it'll be just that. yet another flu.

 

[parky]

I am amazed at peoples responses to masks, I'm sure we are all aware that they do not give protection as such but reduce the amount of airborne particles produced, will help a little by people not ingesting the particles, however, there are at least two more areas where it can enter the body, it is just one defence along with hygiene measures such as washing & sanitizing hands, keeping inanimate objects like door handles, banisters etc. clean all help reduce the spread. There seems to be a lot of experts in the world without real knowledge, I agree this is an unprecedented time but what with past experience like SARS, EBOLA etc. I'm sure the real experts know more than we do.
My wife works at a food factory, there are about 350 people who work there, they introduced the wearing of masks & other PPE plus put screens up on production lines to separate the workers & in addition to the already strict hygiene measures introduced others, in the span of this pandemic, the number of incidents where employees have contracted Covid has been 9, two of these contracted it outside of work (both from family members) & did not spread as far as is known to any other employees, 4 almost certainly did, this was due to one employee, almost certainly knowing he was ill, sneaking past the temperature checks, having his mask round his neck rather than covering his face & coughing (I will not go into specifics but he was removed very quickly but it was too late) the other three including my wife on the same line contracted it. There was one other incident on another line, however, in that case prompt action by the staff themselves prevented any further cases, this is not to say that others have not been exposed & could possibly asymptomatic but to me this proves those measures do work.

 

[geniusintraining]

Blocking air is bad for breathing. Blocking aerosols is needed to make a significant impact on Covid transmission. Rather independent effects, it turns out. Anything less that an N95 mask is effectively transparent to aerosols. And any mask not tightly worn simply redirects some of the aerosols up or out the sides, where they float for hours.


Go read the MIT study. Not just its politically correct recommendations, but the whole thing.



If you are serious about masks, try on an N95 mask. Make it tight enough so nothing escapes around the edges when you exhale. That is wearing it like a medical professional--effective against aerosols. You tell me if your breathing is impacted. And if anything is escaping around any other kind of mask (because you've plugged it with large droplets in the first few minutes), what do you think you're really accomplishing? Besides impeding oxygen flow to your own brain?

You dont have a clue about what you are saying.... and STOP acting like you do.

Do you know how many people wear mask every day of their life long before Covid because of their job, I wore one for years because of the environment I was in, some people again long before Covid used mask every day in Asia just because they were brought up that way, mask are NOT bad for people and stop saying it.

Do you know what the 95 means in N95? its 95% effective and plugging it with droplets? you dont know what you are talking about.