OT: Ethics, accepting a position.

[newbie]

In two months I will be out of a job, so I have been actively looking since the beginning of the year. I have a job offer for a maintenance position. It is currently the best offer and they are willing to wait the two months before I would start. However, it is not my first choice, I have many resumes out, and one company (with a VERY desirable position) who is interested but wants to re-interview me closer to my availability date: IOW-not definite.

My question is, do you think it is ethical to accept a position if you think it's possible that you'll leave before you actually start?

Somebody once said, "Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it."; how true.

 

[Sergei Troizky]

First af all, my respects, Newbie.
I know some people who would not even bother to hesitate in such situation.
Concerning, your question.
Are they hiring you unconditionaly permanently or with a probation period? In the latter case I do not see why you cannot change your mind if they may change theirs.
Anyways, if you cancel before you start working, I would say ethically it is just slightly questionable. And almost for sure they have a backup candidate for the position.

 

[Steve Bailey]

Be honest with the compsany that made the offer. You don't have to tell them they're not your first choice, but they have to already be aware that you're talking to as many other companies as you possibly can. Tell them you don't expect them to hold the position for you for the next two months, and if someone else comes along that looks good to them, they should go ahead and hire that person.

Look at it this way. If you only planned to give your current employer two weeks notice, and this company happened to be the first to make you an offer, you'd tell them that you had more interviews scheduled and that you'd make your decision once they were all done. Nothing unethical about that, and most employers would respect that approach, even if they might remind you that they would also continue to interview people.

In the present case, the difference is in the timeline, but there is no need for your actions to be any different. Besides, it's a lot easier to keep your story consistent when you tell the truth. Inventing a cover story to conceal your true intentions is far too much work for far too little payback.

 

[kamenges]

I was faced with a similar situation when I took my current job. After I took my current (new at the time) job my previous employer sweetened the pot. I turned it down and came to where I am today. The sole reason was I didn't want to shaft my new employer. They hired me in good faith expecting me to start when I said I would. I personally couldn't walk away.

Basically, in my mind, the questionability (is that a word??) of it gets worse the closer you get to your start date. As more days go by you put the potential employer in a tighter spot. Sergei mentioned they most likely have a back-up candidate in mind. That is true right up until you say you will take the job. At that point everyone else who was interviewed will be off looking for something else. It is very likely that the 'back-up' will have already found another position as well as his back-up.

It really is personal choice. I wouldn't do it but I can't really say it's not ethical, either.

Keith

 

[CaseyK]

It is pretty common, at least in Engineering and Construction, for new hires not to show up. In some areas, probably 25-40%.

A lot depends on the area, company, and economy.

Ethically, or morally, you have to figure that one out for yourself. Remember, you have to take care of #1, and if there is a Mrs. #1, .....

You never know what will happen, the job being held for you may be eliminated or given to someone else.

I was hired last year on a Tuesday night, went in Wednesday morning to schedule the start day, which turned out to be Friday, and on Wednesday night, the job was eliminated.

I was once told, "Never Stop Looking". It has been good advice.

Best Regards.....kc

 

[newbie]

Thanks for the reply Sergei. I'm pretty sure that they have a standard 3 to 6 month probation. I don't remember what, or if, they said during the interview.

BTW - The interview was about 5 hours: 2 hours of testing, 1 hour of waiting around, and 2 hours with the Maintenance Manager. In case you're interested.

 

[bwheat]

Just remember nobody in the business world cares more about you than YOU. Like CaseyK said look out for #1 first. In todays corporate environment just about any position could be eliminated at any time and the people doing the interviewing and hiring would not even know until it happens. Take the best offer when you get it and NEVER stop learning.

 

[russrmartin]

take the job

My suggestion is to take the job. The ethics will come in if you decide to leave. I was in the same position not long after I got out of school. If you take the for sure job, you may enjoy it more than you think you will, and perhaps the other job will then not be so attractive. Conversely, if you start and dislike it, you can respectfully leave telling your boss that the position is just not for you, but you appreciated the opportunity to give it a try. Finally, in the event that you like the new job, but the other offer is for more money, you can always speak with your new employer and explain the new offer that was not previously on the table, and also explain that if he can sweeten the pot a little bit, you'd like to stay. In any of these scenarios, which I have been through all 3, none of my employers were disrespected, and I'm glad for the experience with all of them, including the sweet offer I didn't take. I'm in a new position because of it, yet I'm also very aware of what is available in the outside world. That's what I think anyways.

Russ

 

[Pierre]

In two months I will be out of a job,...

You are the only one resposible for you.

Say Yes to the first one, say yes to the second one. When you come to the river then you decide if you build a bridge.

After that if you drop the first job for the next who is in a position to tell you that what you did is wrong?


Ethic? Gimme a break. Its the boy's life where talking about. Take care of Mr # 1 first. No one else will.

Corporations have no ethic.

If you mentionned that it was a familly owned operation and the owner talked to you then I would tell you to open your hart to him and tell the exact thruth but its not the case.

 

[kamenges]

Originally posted by Pierre:
Corporations have no ethic.

So because others rob banks means I should be able to also, right? Because others cheat on their taxes means I should be able to also, right? The argument that because someone else does something I should be able to also is a dangerous position to take. And keep in mind that if this is a 'corporation' that it's not the 'corporation' that will get screwwed by this. It's the other 5 guys in the department that will have to pick up the slack until someone else is found. Granted, the same thing happens if you leave after some period of time.

Originally posted by Pierre:

If you mentionned that it was a familly owned operation and the owner talked to you then I would tell you to open your hart to him and tell the exact thruth but its not the case.

Now this one I really don't get. You don't think the small operator can kick poor newbie out on to the street just a quickly as a 'corporation' can? How you conduct yourself really isn't contingent on your situation. It's just how you conduct yourself.

Like I said before, it's up to newbie to decide what he does in this situation. I wouldn't do it; the whole 'Do unto others...' thing, don't ya know. But it really is up to him to decide. I personally would follow Steve Bailey's advice. That looked about right to me.

Keith

 

[cntrlfrk]

It's important to not burn bridges, (you never know when you may be knocking on their door again). I had been treated well by a particular company while they stood behind me when my son went through several horrible surgeries. I felt obligated to stay with them a few years longer than I would have if they had not been so helpful even though I had hit the top of the proverbial ladder, however, my boss at the time told me to never be loyal to a company, you can work hard, be trustworthy and dependable, but in the end, the company is there to make money, and you are there to get a paycheck, and he actually helped me move on to a much better career with another company. To make a long story a little longer, you can be loyal to people, but not a company, do what you need to do for yourself and your family. 10 years from now will you be wishing you would have taken the job with less opportunity?

 

[Wino]

Pierre,

I have to say I agree with you. If the corporation needed to make the bottom line look better, then laying off a bunch of workers around Thanksgiving will make your fourth quarter numbers look great... and make the company look good for a seller. Do they warn you in advance? Not likely.

Loyalty is a two-way street, and I'm not seeing any coming from the company toward the employee, so why should the employee show any back?

Newbie,take the offer. If you get a better one, take the offer. If the following week, you get a better offer again, take it.

I know people who finished their probation, got hired permanently, then got laid off one week later. Where's the company ethic in that?

I've seen positions eliminated, giving a reason to let someone go, then within a month, the exact same duties were assigned to a new position, and someone else hired. And the person doing the original job was not even contacted. She had only been working for the company for 20 years. I guess she was just making too much money because of her skill and experience.

Companies don't have ethics. Ethics encumber you, not them.

It isn't like robbing banks. More like the bank continually shorts your account by a few hundred dollars, and you get a chance to go to a new bank that says they'll only short your account by $50. Then you find a bank that says they'll only steal $10 per month. Would you change banks? Of course you would.

 

[Steve Bailey]

Companies don't have ethics. Ethics encumber you, not them.

Gee, when I grow up, I want to be just like a corporation. Imagine not being encumbered by any code of ethics. How cool is that!

 

[TimothyMoulder]

True story - happened to me...

I left, on good terms, a company 10 minutes from home for a new job in a town 50 miles away. Couldn't sell the house, so after 2 years of this, the three hour commute was killing me. So I put back in with the old company.

Now, my old boss hemmed and hawwed around on me, which was highly confusing - like I said, good terms. But my dear ol' mother worked there as an assembly worker and spread word I was coming back, which generated alot of publicity. Finally, I was called back, and all was well - for 4 weeks.

At the end of 4 weeks, it was announced that corporate was closing the shop and moving operations to Mexico. I swung by (not at) the plant manager and snarled, "Nice to be back, Ernie. Thanks a $%^^# lot." e never spoke to me again.

Eventually, the full story came out. My old boss, not the plant manager, had been stalling me because he knew what was about to happen, but naturally, couldn't say anything. But when Mom began announcing my impending return to the shop floor, and everyone began wondering where I was (I won a Gold Pentastar award, heh heh) they started asking uncomfortable questions.

So I was hired back, for no other reason, than to allay suspicion the plant was about to close. Talk about hung out to dry.

So in short, no, companies DO have morals and ethics - the morals of a Pharisee and the ethics of a money-changer. You might owe something to good friends and co-workers, but never to the company - by definition, you are an expense waiting to be deemed unnescessary.

One last note - the only job I could find nearby after this fiasco was an injection molding outfit one street over. Place had a reputation as a meatgrinder, but when I was offerred a job elsewhere a week after starting, I turned it down. Said, and I quote, "I agreed to take the position, and I feel obliged to stay and make a go of it."

Two bad decisions in a row. Everything about the place was true - boss was a tyrant, conditions were hell. Took a year and a half to sell my house and get the hell out of there.

So take any and all offers until you find what you want. Don't trouble your conscience about the sake of the firm - you owe them nothing. Hey, it's "right to work", right?

TM

 

[kamenges]

It looks to me like these suggestions are split between guys who have been jobbed by The Man and guys who haven't. I have obviously been pretty lucky so far in that I've never been whacked in the face by an employer. Then again, I'm still fairly young. Sooner or later statistics say I will bet spanked and then my position MAY change. But as of now I stick with my position.


Wino, interesting analogy if not exactly accurate. In this case its like someone going to five banks and saying "In three weeks I'll have $1 million to invest in a long term investment and I'm giving it to you." All five banks, assuming you are speaking in good faith, make plans to use that money. Then, on the day you are supposed to make the deposit, you say to all but one "I'm going with Bank Z." Now you have 4 banks, who thought you were dealing in good faith, scrambling to cover for money they thought they had.

CaseyK had the opposite situation happen to him. I'm sure that irritated him pretty seriously. I just don't know if that gives him the Constitutional right to jam the next employer he encounters.

Keith