OT: Ground rods bonding

I'm not questioning whether having a license is good or bad or anyone's work. What I'm trying to point out is that there are a lot of home owners that are just as capable as contractors. In my area it is easy to pull an electrical permit and get it to pass inspection. In my experience with inspectors they have more patience's with home owners than contractors. Inspectors are there to insure that the work performed is up to code, PERIOD. There not there to make judgement's on someone's capable.

I was in the Trades for several years and have friends that are Carpenter's and Millwright's. In my opinion the Trades have fallen behind, mainly because of Unions that take advantage of good times. I have little respect for contractors that won't take the time to do the job right, and I see it all the time!

Having the work done by a license contractor does mean the work will done right, especially if his friend is an inspector!
 
The thread is getting far more attention the ever expected
A few thoughts on this to follow up
Completely burring the ground rod would not pass any inspection, you must be able to inspect the connection to insure the integrity of the ground. The one exception would be if you used Cadweld to connect the ground wire to the rod. The equipment to do that is expensive and even most contractors can’t do it definitely not DIY job.
Also if you are on a public water system or even a well code requires you to bond then the your grounder terminal in the main panel. In most cases that forms the ground grid and they don’t even use a ground rod.
If you already have the trench open for the garage footers then the best ground you can get a buried grid, it’s far better than a single rod. Burry the bare copper wire under the footer before you pore cement. A ground grid or loop in actually the preferred method if you can do it.
Also from you description of your service entrance may not be acceptable different areas have different rules. If you make a mistake it will cost you to have it changed later.
Please bring in an inspector or at least a licensed electrical contractor early on this. What ever the cost it’s worth it.
I remember many years ago when I was running jobs for a contractor we got a job to up grade the service on commercial building in a shopping mall the problem was where the service cam in and metering equipment was located made a standard install impossible we had to improvise the space was to small to accommodate the increase size of the hardware.
The first thing I did before any work was started I required a site meeting with local inspector, power company rep, property owner as well as myself. We came up with a plan I documented it and got every to sign off on it. All before any work was started so everybody knows what was to be done.
The job was completed as documented and again signed off by everybody involved inspection sticker was placed on the service. Some weeks later my boss got a letter from the power company stating that one of the higher up didn’t like what was approved and tried to withdraw their approval.
My boss just sent them copies of the signed preapproved plan and the signed final approved installation.
We never heard anything back had I not gotten the signed approvals he would have been on the hook for the cost to completely redo the service.
A word of advice preplanning pay big not planning could cost you big.
 
Maxkling,


there are several reasons to be licensed.
Liability - the home owners insurance may not cover the house if there is an electrical fire and it is because of incorrect wiring. Part substitution in the electrical box is one of those exceptions. let's say you have a Sq. D panel and you buy a generic breaker that will work. the insurance company may not pay because you used the wrong part. Also, if you sell the house and there is an issue, the one that does the work can be forced to fix the issue if found by the buyer within x number of days.


in my area, no home owner who pulls an electrical permit and does the work will have his work passed by the inspector. there was an incident years ago, the work passed inspection, there was a fire, and the inspection office took a big hit, the home was destroyed. I do not know the outcome, but that's the reason.


I am dealing with that issue now and have fixed many of the previous owner's in home additions. how it ever passed code I will never know. By the way, i'm an Electrical Engineer and my county inspectors and power company know me and my work.


james

What part of TN are you in? I'm in East TN and homeowners can buy permits and do their own work here. I've done it many times and never had any issues getting it passed. They barely even look at it.
 
The rods are going to be under cement patio sometime in the future. If i ever have issues with future inspections due to that, I will drive new rods outside of the patio. For the future garage, I will pull my own permit and have it inspected. I was hoping to have garage built this year, but with current climate its probably best that money stays in the savings account instead of being spent.
 
For reference, I'm an electrician and help manage an electrical shop.

At your main service and at subpanels in detached buildings(garages, shops, etc) you are required to install a grounding electrode system.

There are several different grounding electrode options:

ground rods

ufer(rebar)

metal water pipe in contact with the earth for 10 feet or more

metal in ground support structures in contact with the earth for 10 feet or more

etc.

If these buildings are existing and do not have an available rebar ground, than standard procedure is to drive two 5/8" x 8' galv rods at least 6' apart. Rods must be flush with or driven below the surface. The inspector must be able to see the wire-ground rod connection before they are covered though. If you cover them with a concrete patio before they get inspected, then it sounds like you'll be driving another set of rods the inspector can look at. Rods are usually inspected during a ditch(underground conduit) inspection or service inspection.

If you have a metal water pipe that meets the 10 feet in contact with the earth criteria, then you would be required to also use that as a grounding electrode.

Any grounding electrodes that are present must be used, when none are present, is when rods are typically installed.
 
For reference, I'm an electrician and help manage an electrical shop.

At your main service and at subpanels in detached buildings(garages, shops, etc) you are required to install a grounding electrode system.

There are several different grounding electrode options:

ground rods

ufer(rebar)

metal water pipe in contact with the earth for 10 feet or more

metal in ground support structures in contact with the earth for 10 feet or more

etc.

If these buildings are existing and do not have an available rebar ground, than standard procedure is to drive two 5/8" x 8' galv rods at least 6' apart. Rods must be flush with or driven below the surface. The inspector must be able to see the wire-ground rod connection before they are covered though. If you cover them with a concrete patio before they get inspected, then it sounds like you'll be driving another set of rods the inspector can look at. Rods are usually inspected during a ditch(underground conduit) inspection or service inspection.

If you have a metal water pipe that meets the 10 feet in contact with the earth criteria, then you would be required to also use that as a grounding electrode.

Any grounding electrodes that are present must be used, when none are present, is when rods are typically installed.


+1

This sounds pretty darn close to what is required here in Michigan. I am a state licensed Journeyman electrician (11 years in October) and grounding & bonding have always brought about conflicting views and misunderstandings as requirements and the logic behind them have changed more than a couple times over the years. I agree with Cow, just want to add my $0.02 explanation to what he outlined, maybe your area has similar requirements? Sounds like there is some gray area in the understanding of what is required and when it is required. The following is based on the mixture of NEC (National Electrical Code), MEC (Michigan Electrical Code) and MRC (Michigan Residential Code) electrical codes as it applies to residential installations in my area:

If there are no other means of obtaining a service ground, then the (2) 8' x 5/8" ground rods are your primary source of service grounding. If there is a means, such as rebar or a metal water service pipe like Cow said, then that is your primary source of ground and the ground rods then become a supplemental source of ground. The rebar and/or water service pipe offer a less resistant path to ground vs the ground rods which is why they are a more "preferred" option. If a metal water pipe is present, the conductor used for grounding and bonding the service is sized in accordance with the size of the service. Sidenote: It has always been my understanding that ground rods are only rated for #6 awg. Can anyone confirm?

If you are installing a sub panel, how you handle your grounding dictates how you handle your grounding. What the heck? Here's what I mean: If a ground wire is supplied from the main service panel, sized in accordance with the feeders, no grounding electrodes are required in the sub panel as the ground conductor supplied is sufficient. Furthermore, adding grounding electrodes to a sub panel with a ground conductor present from the main panel can be dangerous as it creates an additional grounding path for the main service, aka "redundant grounding." If the path to ground has less resistance through the sub panel, any unbalanced current on the ground system will use that pathway instead of the prescribed grounding at the main service panel. Another thing to point out with sub panels - be sure to separate your neutrals and grounds for exactly the same reason. The unbalanced load at the sub panel (neutrals from circuits) should utilize the feeder neutral back to the main panel, not the ground conductor or ground system tied to the sub panel; your grounds are not supposed to be current carrying conductors. Think of the sub panel as an extension of the main; it feeds off of the main panel, it does not supplement the main panel.

If no ground conductor is present from the main service panel, then a means of grounding is required in the sub panel, i.e. ground rods. In practice, I have always run a ground wire with my feeders. It is my preferred method and I have never had to debate with inspectors over it.

If you have questions about specific requirements in your area, I suggest contacting the inspector in your city/township or a local licensed electrician. In my experience, most inspectors are happy to offer up the requirements they look for you to meet when inspecting your work, they might even send you (the homeowner) a copy of the specific code sections that apply to whatever you are working on. Usually (again, in my experience) inspectors are more critical of the electrical contractor because they should know what is expected and why vs the average homeowner just trying to save a couple bucks. I have seen both sides of the fence.

Hope that helps some.
 
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I just want everyone to be safe when working with electrical. I've seen too many fires from people that don't understand what they are doing. Please know that my intentions here are merely informative, because I care. I don't mean to come off like a know-it-all.

I'm doing some work preparing for adding some concrete patios. Im running conduit underground in preperation of a future garage. I'm also going to go ahead and drive a second ground rod into the ground just cause. For the second ground rod, do I have to bond it to the first (I'm digging but having a hard time actually finding it). Can I bond the two grounds in the main disconnect/service entrance ground bar? Future work will probably have me installing a generator transfer switch. This is where the grounds would bond. Right now, I will probably not connect this ground to anything, just get it above concrete level.

Thanks

Grounding and bonding are not the same thing. When you ground something, you are forcing whatever you are grounding, to retain the same potential as earth (hence ground). When you bond one thing to another, you force part A to have the same potential as part B. Things like both sides of a water meter or both your hot and cold water pipes at your water heater should be bonded at ground potential. All service grounds need to be tied to the ground bar at the main disconnect of your service, whether that happens to be the main house panel or a main disconnect on the outside of your home - that depends on your particular service setup. Generator transfer switches, automatic or not, come in many flavors, but the ones that I have installed over the years tend to act more like a sub panel or a remote set of circuit feed switches and should not be confused with the main panel. Whether you are feeding house circuits from a utility or a generator, the source of ground should come from the main disconnect. Note: Some generators require you to sink a ground rod to ground the frame of the generator. This is separate from the ground of the service.


Very interesting product! I have never seen anything like that, but the person in the video mentioned cutting off a mushroom head so the cylinder piece could slide on. PSA: Don't ever cut your ground rods, at any length! Reason 1 - it breaks the UL listing. Should the inspector find out, they will never approve of the job because you are using a device/material that is not UL listed for the application. Reason 2 - you want the ground rod to work as it was designed and intended. Cutting off any bit of it hinders its resistance and contact with the earth which hinders its function. I have seen people try to cut them in half so they can get away with purchasing 1 rod instead of 2.
 
Thanks. I dont have my nec here as its at work. I cant think of a reason it would not me acceptable to bond at panel instead of at rods, so thats what im going for since i got tired of digging trying to find the existing rod.

To answer the question of if the ground wire has to be continuous from ground rod to the second ground rod to the panel. No. Back in the day of metal water pipes this was not a requirement, I see no reason (or evidence) that it is today.

The two ground rod rule is a change that occurred after my mid-life switch to engineering, but it makes all sorts of good sense.

Prior to engineering, I was a Colorado Master Electrician. But these days I prefer to refer to myself as a handyman. So take whatever I say with a grain of salt. :)

As for the ground rod sticking up above the level of the soil, we were always required to hammer it in flush with the ground level and have the connection visible for the inspector.

I'm late to the discussion, but it sounds to me like you did it properly. Cow and JasonTheSparky did a great job explaining the requirements. Just keep in mind that your AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) is:

a) Likely to follow a different set of rules than theirs.
b) Probably hasn't passed a homeowner job the first time ever. Or the second time...
 
To answer the question of if the ground wire has to be continuous from ground rod to the second ground rod to the panel. No. Back in the day of metal water pipes this was not a requirement, I see no reason (or evidence) that it is today.

2017 NEC

250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation. Grounding electrode conductors at the service, at each building or structure where supplied by feeder(s) or branch circuit(s), or at a separately derived shall be installed as specified in 250.64(A) through (F).



(C) Continuous. Except as provided in 250.30(A)(5) and (A)(6), 250.30(B)(1), and 250.68(C), grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be installed in one continuous length without a splice or joint. If necessary, splices or connections shall be made as permitted in (1) through (4):


(1) Splicing of the wire-type grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted only by irreversible compression-type connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment or by exothermic welding process.


(2) Sections of busbars shall be permitted to be connected together to form a grounding electrode conductor.


(3) Bolted, riveted, or welded connections of structural metal frames of buildings or structures.


(4) Threaded, welded, brazed, soldered or bolted-flange connections of metal water piping.





This wording has been true since the 2011 NEC, the 2008 NEC had essentially the same requirements, just without (3) and (4) which were added with the 2011 revisions. The 2008 code book is oldest I have in my collection, when the requirements were actually adopted I cannot speak to.

EDIT: Each state adopts its own code, which to the best of my knowledge is derived from the NEC. Each city/township then enforces what it thinks is right, each inspector then enforces what they think is right. While code is pretty well black and white, the enforcement of it is very subjective. For example, I have had 2 different inspectors fail the same house on 2 different occasions. One inspector one day says a sump pump in a basement needs to be on a dedicated circuit (which it was) and GFCI protected, fails the inspection. We go back, install a GFCI, call for a reinspection. House gets inspected by a different inspector, who fails it because a sump pump should be on a dedicated circuit (which it still was) and plugged into a single receptacle (which we had installed originally). Same city, same house, same job, 2 different sets of thoughts and eyeballs. Sometime they just want your money, but that's a conversation for a different thread...

Many years ago I worked with another electrician that came in from Florida, said they only use solid wire where he came from. Apparently it is illegal to mix solid and stranded conductors down there..? No electrician in their right mind would use solid wire around here - why make pulling wire harder than it has to be? Maybe I am just used to our way of doing things here...
 
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EDIT: Each state adopts its own code, which to the best of my knowledge is derived from the NEC. Each city/township then enforces what it thinks is right, each inspector then enforces what they think is right. While code is pretty well black and white, the enforcement of it is very subjective. For example, I have had 2 different inspectors fail the same house on 2 different occasions. One inspector one day says a sump pump in a basement needs to be on a dedicated circuit (which it was) and GFCI protected, fails the inspection. We go back, install a GFCI, call for a reinspection. House gets inspected by a different inspector, who fails it because a sump pump should be on a dedicated circuit (which it still was) and plugged into a single receptacle (which we had installed originally). Same city, same house, same job, 2 different sets of thoughts and eyeballs. Sometime they just want your money, but that's a conversation for a different thread...

Many years ago I worked with another electrician that came in from Florida, said they only use solid wire where he came from. Apparently it is illegal to mix solid and stranded conductors down there..? No electrician in their right mind would use solid wire around here - why make pulling wire harder than it has to be? Maybe I am just used to our way of doing things here...

We did Ufer grounds along with bonding the water pipes, and of course the obligatory ground rod and never daisy chained them. Maybe we were getting away with something, who knows?

Yeah, my first codebook was from the 70's... :) As for inspectors, what can you say? Those who can't do, inspect.

And this is why for whatever work that I do these days (and it is a select clientele), I advertise myself as a "Handyman". Who needs the hassle?


And not that long ago I had a guy tell me that solid wire was illegal. Two things immediately came to mind when he said that:

a) Someone needs to tell Lowes and Home Depot to stop selling Romex.
b) His profession was as a truck mechanic...

So I won't throw away that old box of Romex just yet.
 
We did Ufer grounds along with bonding the water pipes, and of course the obligatory ground rod and never daisy chained them. Maybe we were getting away with something, who knows?

Yeah, my first codebook was from the 70's... :) As for inspectors, what can you say? Those who can't do, inspect.

And this is why for whatever work that I do these days (and it is a select clientele), I advertise myself as a "Handyman". Who needs the hassle?


And not that long ago I had a guy tell me that solid wire was illegal. Two things immediately came to mind when he said that:

a) Someone needs to tell Lowes and Home Depot to stop selling Romex.
b) His profession was as a truck mechanic...

So I won't throw away that old box of Romex just yet.


Agreed. The older I get, the less side work I choose to do as well. I don't even want to do my own work anymore...haha!

My solid vs stranded comment was regarding individual conductors, I should have specified - my mistake; THHN, THWN etc. So far as I know Romex is still the highly preferred choice for residential wiring. I do think it all depends on where in the country you are and what the AHJ will accept.o_O I've dealt with inspectors that make it their mission to dismantle your code knowledge on every inspection, while others inspect from the driver's seat of their car (might be a Detroit thing :ROFLMAO:).

For us when doing house grounding, it really kind of depended on the builder - I wired a LOT of new homes - and what they made available. When I first got into the trade, almost all of the water service pipes wound up being our primary ground. Later on, the water utility started running their services in some form of PVC. Right about the same time, builders started leaving about a foot of rebar exposed above the poured foundation near where our service was planned to go, so it was a nice trade off. If both were available, we hit both.
 
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Agreed. The older I get, the less side work I choose to do as well. I don't even want to do my own work anymore...haha!

My solid vs stranded comment was regarding individual conductors, I should have specified - my mistake; THHN, THWN etc. So far as I know Romex is still the highly preferred choice for residential wiring. I do think it all depends on where in the country you are and what the AHJ will accept.o_O I've dealt with inspectors that make it their mission to dismantle your code knowledge on every inspection, while others inspect from the driver's seat of their car (might be a Detroit thing :ROFLMAO:).

Nah, I knew what you meant, it was just the truck mechanic/farmer making that statement that had my eyes rolling.

Yeah, and the state guys in Colorado were the worst. You might as well adopt a different codebook. But they have their local boys to protect...

And remember, there is a lot of money to be made in telling people that they don't know what they are doing.

My favorite inspector story is about Gary L., who was the son of the boss, and usually a good guy. He asked me to help him wire his basement on a weekend, and I said sure, why not?

Gary laid me out on what was to be done and said that he had a few things to do upstairs and he would be along shortly. It became apparent that he didn't plan on returning and was leaving all of the work for me.

Okay, so that's the way it's going to be...

He had five three-way circuits to be wired so I wired each one a different way. Standard, deadend, 14-2 travelers, powered to the light and 14-3 to each switch, and switch-light-switch in 14-3. All legal methods back then.

Gary was flummoxed. I had to draw out each circuit to show him how each one worked. I left knowing that if he ever had to work on any of them he would have to pay an electrician to fix it for him.

He later became an inspector for the city of Colorado Springs.
 

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