Panel PC / Ignition Opinions

[Mullet]

Hey guys. We've been learning Ignition and going through all the courses on Inductive University. I really like the software and the things you can do in Ignition and the screens, so we've thought about pushing out Panel PC's to a customer with Ignition running on the screen and potentially use that to see if they liked it enough they might use Ignition for their SCADA platform as well.

First of all, what's everybody's opinions on using Ignition even as just a local HMI on a facility? Is it overkill if it's just a local application?

Is there a generally recognized model or brand of Panel PC's that people like? I don't know a ton about them honestly and if there's a certain brand or type that people think are the best.

 

[strantor]

I haven't used Ignition. I have a 15 of Advantech's PanelPCs out in the field running a quasi-SCADA program I wrote in Python. The oldest ones (5 years old) are PPC-6020, then PPC6120, and newest ones are PPC6121. The older ones would run on any 24V power supply but the newer ones have issues with some supplies and if you're going that route I suggest ordering the recommended supply from Advantech at time of purchase. I have had 3 failures in 5 years, two of them at the same location, same production line, I think because of bad power quality. Last time I replaced the power supply (because I had to, because of reason already mentioned) and no more failures. They are pretty robust. I run them in angled consolet enclosure that aren't much bigger than the PPC itself, so they don't get any cooling. They are installed in non-climate-controlled facilities along the gulf coast of TX, so ambient can be >100f and when you open the enclosure it's even hotter inside. But they don't seem to care.

 

[MikeyN]

I think full scale Ignition is overkill for a local HMI. I haven't used Edge, but as I understand it, this is what that targets. I believe that Ignition has Panel PC and IPC recommendations on their site particularly suited for Edge. We started with Ignition for data logging and SQL, and were using Excel to pull data from the SQL server to create our own reports. Eventually the time came to upgrade a PLC5 system that was using RSView 32. It was going to cost us nearly 3x the amount to upgrade to FactoryTalk View SE as compared to the unlimited Vision Module. Since I was doing the conversion, I opted to save the money and do not regret it one bit. Our system has been growing like that since then. Module here, module there as needed.

Since purchasing the Vision Module, I have littered the plant with production boards that run on Raspberry Pi 4s. Since there is no user input required, these are stashed behind 32" to 60" televisions around the plant. The total cost is peanuts. I also have a Dynics resistive touchscreen IPC that is running Ubuntu utilizing the Vision Client Launcher. This is used to monitor inventory throughout the plant and is in an incredibly oily part of the plant. The RSView 32 application that I replaced is running on a Windows machine in the department. That used to be a huge point of contention with our IT department because Windows updates were usually a no-no. Now they can do whatever they want with it as long as it stays connected to our PLC Network. If the PC dies, anyone in the plant with a laptop can get them back up and running in an emergency.

I have only just started working with Perspective, and am not disappointed with that either. We are eliminating controlled paper documents down on the floor (work instructions, scan sheets, etc.) in favor of digital versions that run on iPads. We can control these so much easier, and if something breaks it only takes a few minutes to get a new one recommissioned.

Moral of the story is, if we hadn't already had Ignition in the plant, we probably wouldn't have made the investment. Additionally, if we didn't have a use case across our plant for it, we probably wouldn't have made the investment. Since they already had their foot in the door so to speak, it was natural for us to continue with that progression. I have probably invested twice the initial cost back into the server and the application, but the money I have saved on Rockwell purchases alone has been even higher than that total investment.

 

[Mullet]

Good info. I guess we're kind of working this backwards. Ignition may not necessarily be the easiest simplest choice for local HMI, but if we do it locally and they like it a lot it would be an easy sell to get their SCADA work as well onto an Ignition server and would then link to the Gateways in the field that are already established.

I've dabbled a bit with older Vision clients in the field that linked to an Ignition Server, and now that I'm going through Core classes I've been diving into the Perspective version which seems fairly slick. We'd build the projects in Perspective which would make the SCADA integration easy for phones and tablets.

The application would all be outdoor facilities not inside of a plant so we'd need robust screens that can handle huge temperature swings and all that fun stuff.

I'll have to look into those Advantech panels. Thanks!

 

[ASF]

I'm starting to use Ignition Edge instead of local HMI's. Unless the HMI requirements are minimal, and they only need a very small (<6") screen, it usually works out cheaper to buy an industrial PC, touchscreen, and Ignition Edge license, than it does to buy a decent size panelview plus. And also I can actually get my hands on the former hardware much faster than the latter.

Plus, Ignition is so much better to design in and work with than any HMI software I've used.

And the great thing, as you say, is that if the custoemr likes it you might even sell them a full SCADA server for the site, and then the edge instance can integrate into it seamlessly. Try THAT with FTView ME and SE!

 

[Mullet]

I'm starting to use Ignition Edge instead of local HMI's. Unless the HMI requirements are minimal, and they only need a very small (<6") screen, it usually works out cheaper to buy an industrial PC, touchscreen, and Ignition Edge license, than it does to buy a decent size panelview plus. And also I can actually get my hands on the former hardware much faster than the latter.

Plus, Ignition is so much better to design in and work with than any HMI software I've used.

And the great thing, as you say, is that if the custoemr likes it you might even sell them a full SCADA server for the site, and then the edge instance can integrate into it seamlessly. Try THAT with FTView ME and SE!

Ignition seems amazing to design with so far. And. I hate Panelviews. They're the worst. And they can only talk Allen Bradley.

What do you use for the HMI? Do you use them outside or inside a climate-controlled plant?

 

[ASF]

PVP's can talk to other processors using Kepware. I've done it once, a long time ago - I set up a 10" PVP on a Modicon 984 PLC, to replace an old DL20 dataliner. That said, I agree with your sentiment in broad terms.

I use Advantech touchscreens and miniature fanless DIN rail mount industrial PC's running Windows 10 IOT. Most of my clients are food & beverage, so the environment the enclosure is located in is typically climate controlled already. I haven't ever needed to manage climate for my OIT's for that reason.

 

[robertmee]

I'm starting to use Ignition Edge instead of local HMI's. Unless the HMI requirements are minimal, and they only need a very small (<6") screen, it usually works out cheaper to buy an industrial PC, touchscreen, and Ignition Edge license, than it does to buy a decent size panelview plus. And also I can actually get my hands on the former hardware much faster than the latter.

Plus, Ignition is so much better to design in and work with than any HMI software I've used.

And the great thing, as you say, is that if the custoemr likes it you might even sell them a full SCADA server for the site, and then the edge instance can integrate into it seamlessly. Try THAT with FTView ME and SE!

I've been doing alot of full blown Ignition Gateeay installs...doing an entire plant starting up in January. But I've not tackled Edge yet. I have a customer that wants to take baby steps with Edge before migrating to full Ignition. I posted a query about that on Ignition forums and one of the senior developers said Edge isn't portable to full Ignition, and that the historian database connectivity on Edge is severely limited unless porting data over to a Gateway. So I'm worried that Edge would be a waste of time as an intermediate step, especially of the work isn't portable. Can you share any insight into your experience with Edge and how it differs from a full blown install.

 

[JeremyM]

I'm starting to use Ignition Edge instead of local HMI's. Unless the HMI requirements are minimal, and they only need a very small (<6") screen, it usually works out cheaper to buy an industrial PC, touchscreen, and Ignition Edge license, than it does to buy a decent size panelview plus. And also I can actually get my hands on the former hardware much faster than the latter.

Plus, Ignition is so much better to design in and work with than any HMI software I've used.

And the great thing, as you say, is that if the custoemr likes it you might even sell them a full SCADA server for the site, and then the edge instance can integrate into it seamlessly. Try THAT with FTView ME and SE!

My opinion is that the price of 10 full-blown Ignition licenses is a perk next to any alleged upside of a PanelView.

 

[Mullet]

I've been doing alot of full blown Ignition Gateeay installs...doing an entire plant starting up in January. But I've not tackled Edge yet. I have a customer that wants to take baby steps with Edge before migrating to full Ignition. I posted a query about that on Ignition forums and one of the senior developers said Edge isn't portable to full Ignition, and that the historian database connectivity on Edge is severely limited unless porting data over to a Gateway. So I'm worried that Edge would be a waste of time as an intermediate step, especially of the work isn't portable. Can you share any insight into your experience with Edge and how it differs from a full blown install.

Based on my understanding (which, to be fair, is fairly limited) is there's no reason why that's not possible. When you setup an Edge device or HMI you're turning it into a Gateway. If and when you decided to create a big server to pool all your information to, you just link your server to all your Gateways and bring your tags across to the main server. You can do Historians and Alarm Pipelines on the remote gateways or you can have all the information your Gateways pass to your server be handled by the server to reduce load on the Gateways. Or whatever way you feel like doing.

One of the overwhelming things about Ignition is there seems to be a ton of flexibility in programming and setting up your network. I don't see why what you're doing should be a problem. It's essentially what we're trying to do.

We setup a panel PC in our lab running a free trial of Ignition Edge that we linked to an AWS Ignition Server for testing purposes and it's been pretty easy to get them linked together and sharing information.

Like I said our intention is to try to get customers to use Perspective for local HMI's. If they like it enough to let us do a full Ignition setup for them the Perspective work will be done already and it'll just be a matter of configuring the Server for them and bringing over the assets we already created locally.

 

[joseph_e2]

PVP's can talk to other processors using Kepware. I've done it once, a long time ago - I set up a 10" PVP on a Modicon 984 PLC, to replace an old DL20 dataliner. That said, I agree with your sentiment in broad terms.

I remember looking into this an an option to communicate with Siemens PLCs. We were seeing if we could settle on a single platform instead of the mess we were starting to get into. At the time, using Kepware required an additional (pretty pricey compared to the hardware we already were buying) license per HMI while the Siemens MPs supported AB PLCs out of the box. Is that still the case? We were about ready to settle on the MPs as our standard until we kept getting premature hardware failures. They had the comms support built in and the software was easier to use than View Studio (low bar, I know...).

 

[Mullet]

PVP's can talk to other processors using Kepware. I've done it once, a long time ago - I set up a 10" PVP on a Modicon 984 PLC, to replace an old DL20 dataliner. That said, I agree with your sentiment in broad terms.

I use Advantech touchscreens and miniature fanless DIN rail mount industrial PC's running Windows 10 IOT. Most of my clients are food & beverage, so the environment the enclosure is located in is typically climate controlled already. I haven't ever needed to manage climate for my OIT's for that reason.

Never messed with Kepware. I'd prefer it if the screen natively supported it.

Beijer HMI's aren't the best, but I've done a bunch of projects where I need information from an Allen Bradley and a Total Flow and being able to easily get those two things to data exchange or just display information on the same screen easily is very very nice.

I've heard Red Lion screens are pretty slick and also easily manage multiple controllers and data exchange but I haven't got to mess around with them yet.

 

[robertmee]

Based on my understanding (which, to be fair, is fairly limited) is there's no reason why that's not possible. When you setup an Edge device or HMI you're turning it into a Gateway. If and when you decided to create a big server to pool all your information to, you just link your server to all your Gateways and bring your tags across to the main server. You can do Historians and Alarm Pipelines on the remote gateways or you can have all the information your Gateways pass to your server be handled by the server to reduce load on the Gateways. Or whatever way you feel like doing.

One of the overwhelming things about Ignition is there seems to be a ton of flexibility in programming and setting up your network. I don't see why what you're doing should be a problem. It's essentially what we're trying to do.

We setup a panel PC in our lab running a free trial of Ignition Edge that we linked to an AWS Ignition Server for testing purposes and it's been pretty easy to get them linked together and sharing information.

Like I said our intention is to try to get customers to use Perspective for local HMI's. If they like it enough to let us do a full Ignition setup for them the Perspective work will be done already and it'll just be a matter of configuring the Server for them and bringing over the assets we already created locally.

But can the project developed in Edge be merged into the primary gateway....IE, vision screens, scripts, tag providers, etc? Or will it forever be an orphan, with its own gateway, and then you have to set up transactions between now multiple gateways to centralize the data. The Edge project would never be part of the central Gateway repository, correct?

 

[ASF]

Yes, the edge is always standalone, because the idea is that it's completely self-sufficient and doesn't rely on the central gateway for anything. There are advantages and disadvantages for sure.

An edge system can store and forward tag history to a main database just like any other Ignition gateway; it's just that in isolation it's limited to two weeks(?) of data storage. You can also set the edge gateway up as a remote tag provider so that only the edge instance is reading the local PLC, and then the tag data is transmitted to the central gateway by the edge gateway.


Beyond that my experience is pretty limited as well as I've not yet had a real world opportunity to actually connect an edge instances to a central gateway.

I have a project I'm currently quoting for a machine rebuild - it's a standalone machine, and the site has an unlimited Ignition license. I could just spin up a standard Ignition session for no licensing cost and run it that way, but then the "standalone" machine is no longer "standalone" since it requires on the site network and the server rack. If I put an Ignition Edge license in there, the machine can stand on its own two feet, and they still have the ability to get tag data into their Historian/put it on their dashboards/whatever.

 

[robertmee]

Yes, the edge is always standalone, because the idea is that it's completely self-sufficient and doesn't rely on the central gateway for anything. There are advantages and disadvantages for sure.

An edge system can store and forward tag history to a main database just like any other Ignition gateway; it's just that in isolation it's limited to two weeks(?) of data storage. You can also set the edge gateway up as a remote tag provider so that only the edge instance is reading the local PLC, and then the tag data is transmitted to the central gateway by the edge gateway.


Beyond that my experience is pretty limited as well as I've not yet had a real world opportunity to actually connect an edge instances to a central gateway.

I have a project I'm currently quoting for a machine rebuild - it's a standalone machine, and the site has an unlimited Ignition license. I could just spin up a standard Ignition session for no licensing cost and run it that way, but then the "standalone" machine is no longer "standalone" since it requires on the site network and the server rack. If I put an Ignition Edge license in there, the machine can stand on its own two feet, and they still have the ability to get tag data into their Historian/put it on their dashboards/whatever.

Is the two weeks of data also stored in SQL, or in an edge file repository? Once the edge app is developed can it only be modified on that box? The issue for me is if it's not portable to the centralized gateway at some point, you lose some of the benefits of backups, redundancy, etc. But I suppose that's a concession.

Lastly is the edge designer environment the same as Vision? Or is there yet another variation to learn.