PLC Lockout For Non-Payment

[vinaytwakade]

OEM Lock

I have tried this. If we have last valid version of Application code, we can use compare utility considering Base file as on-line file and compare-to file as offline file in Disk. Select print report to look for the differences.

Try this in critical case when you are in trouble because of OEM Lock.

Best Luck to all of us.

Vinay T Wakade

 

[jturner911]

if the customer has a bad rep of not paying
then tell them to find someone else to handle the project.......
no need in dealing with non-paying customers

 

[bwheat]

As an Engineer working for a company that purchases machines from OEM's I will NOT EVER recommend that my company purchase a machine from a company that locks me out of the code even BEFORE the machine is installed. We will work out an agreement before the machine is purchased that we will pay for the machine, programming etc. by whatever schedule the bean counters at each company want workout. The bottom line is that I am responsible to get the machine installed and running and I will not do that without having the code in hand at start up.

 

[rsdoran]

I am an end user in most cases

That being said, I have also been in business and know how difficult getting paid can be. Due to my own ignorance I have been fighting for a $250,000 payment.

Right or wrong in some cases this is necessary.

Right or wrong...you can have all the code pertaining to the machine BUT doesnt mean the program can not still be locked out.

Right or wrong does not matter. Many companies sell machines that are
specific to your applcation BUT will not give you the plc program.
Its easy when you dont buy a system that is marketed...not when it is.

As an end user THAT IS NOT a bean counter...do what is needed to GET YOUR MONEY.

I have a job because of situations like this....and appreciate it.

Forgive me if I manage to find a way around your "lockout".

 

[PhilipW]

All this complicated discussion!!!

It is simple. The contract MUST state that ownership of the logic intellectual property, protected by copywright, is to be retained by the developer until it has been fully signed off and paid for.

In some cases the enduser is only paying for a liscence to use, in which case the contract must be explicit about that too. (Read your MS Windows Liscence.)

The ONLY legitimate reason for not paying is that the customer is not satisfied with the system. In that case he retains final payment until the developer has delivered the result mutually contracted for. The scope of this kind of work is frequently the subject of dispute in our business because all too often the specification is not clear at the outset or "spec creep" has taken hold of the project.

But note. By withholding payment the customer is placing responsibility for completion of the work onto the developer. Tacitly this presumes the developer is still the owner of the IP.

Until the logic is signed off and paid for, you the developer OWN it. Any contract you sign, or quote that you make, that fails to be absolutely explicit about this is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Screamin]

re: Contract

In a previous company that I worked for it was stated in the terms and conditions that the code written for the machine was ours until full payment was made (with some other legal mumbo jumbo around it). According to the lawyers, if they continued to run the machine after the due date of payment, then we would have the ability to sue for not only the payment owed, but a percentage of the proceeds that were made off the machine. Admittedly, this would be difficult for a larger company like Ford or GM who could through 100 lawyers at you in a blink of an eye, but would work for the smaller companies.

 

[steve708]

I'll have to agree with bwheat. I am also an engineer responsible for purchasing and installing machinery and systems from OEM's, and an OEM who "locks" their code does not even make it to my bid list.

We pay 90% for work in place and hang on to 10% until we are satisfied. A program for a new system usually ends up being about 90% of your final working program, and most of the time the user adds the final changes to make the system complete. We pay the OEM 100% in the end for a 90% program, so they should consider themselves lucky, especially since we rarely ever call them in for service afterwards, we just fix it ourselves. If the code was locked, I'd be calling them in for service everyday.

 

[Screamin]

re: 90%

Steve, though I agree with your logic and that might be how it works at the plant you work at, most of the customers I have run into do not act this way. Not that they act dishonourably, its just that 90% is billed upon installation on the plant floor. That's a big difference then having the money in hand when the machine is installed on the plant floor. Now, a number of our customers will pay these bills within 30-45 days (contract says 30). There are some hoewever that believe 30 days is actually 90 days or 120 days. This therefore puts a strain on the monetary finances of the little guy. Sometimes I guess you just have to realize when it is necessary to "fire" a customer.

 

[darrenj]

Sorry to dig up this old thread but was wondering how bernie made out? Did this get implamented?

One this we should remember is we all deal with this issue every day..Try installing norton antivirus and not activating it..It stops working..even look at rsview or programs like that..you have your evaluation period but unless its paid for after a period of time it shuts down..If your plant pays its bills you have nothing to worry about..Of course as others have said anyone worth there salt could figure it out but if the programmer was clever enough it might take some time

I have been stung before and it hurts but being in construction we do have some options like construction liens, But those options are limited..You only have 30 days to lien a project..most contractors terms are 45 days (Going on 90!!) For the most part people are honest but there are always crooks out there that ruin it for everyone..

Just my 2c

again sorry for digging it up.

D

 

[nswu1]

I used to work for a OEM that always used time bombs for payments on all overseas project. I never agreed with it but that was our protocol. I do believe in intellectual property, but now as a independant I do utilize strict contract agreements before hand. And as for questionable payment risks, I utilize credit cards. A few months back i purchased a Nextel phone that has a credit card slide reader option. I'm always in favor of ways to make my life simple. Good luck.

 

[bernie_carlton]

We have implemented this in a few cases. As a reminder, this is with the full knowledge and consent of the customer. The machines are sent out with the 'release codes' for the first two months pre-installed and, as payments are made, further codes are given.These are entered in a convenient screen. There are two entry points so that 'this month' and 'next month' can be entered to prevent any panic at midnight on the last day of the month. On final contract payment a permanent release code is provided which unlocks the system for good. At that point also a copy of the installed program is provided to the customer if they desire for their own maintenance.

It's a bit of a hassle for me since, on machine checkout in our plant, I must set the PLC's internal calendar for each month to verify that the release codes which will be supplied do indeed work since we agree to harsh penalties if the release code, properly entered, fails to allow the machine to operate.

Of course the program in the CPU is locked from access. Upon giving the final release the CPU access code is also given.

 

[darrenj]

Have there been any complaints? or last minute cheques after the deadline??!!

 

[elevmike]

Bernie, Just out of couriosity, what PLC did you use to do this with?

I did something like this once. The unit would stop in a fail-safe manner say after 90 days. The code was to press certain operator buttons in the proper sequence and within a given time. The "release" bit was set by usung the MOV instruction into nvram (AD DL240).

 

[jstolaruk]

A UCC filing on equipment is the best legal way to handle non-payments. Then you can get the sheriff to go in and collect the equipment.

 

[bernie_carlton]

To elevmike - we have first implemented this on an AutomationDirect DL-06.