Suspend Until Payment

I see all the posters are American.

America is a sue happy country.

If someone thinks a machine you designed is too hard to run with a safety interlock installed & they bypass it so they can run easier, then end up injuring someone, they will still sue you because you made a machine that was too hard to run & they were forced to bypass the safety. I was involved in a case of this where a customer cut off a safety guard & sued when someone got injured.
 
I see all the posters are American. I'm not surprised you all run scared of the consequences of trying to get what is rightfully yours when we read a woman gets a million dollars for spilling coffee on herself and other such liable cases.

It's a little different in the UK.

Everything is not what it seems to be. Google "mcdonald's coffee spilling case" and press pictures if you think that the coffe wasn't to hot.
 
America is a sue happy country.

If someone thinks a machine you designed is too hard to run with a safety interlock installed & they bypass it so they can run easier, then end up injuring someone, they will still sue you because you made a machine that was too hard to run & they were forced to bypass the safety. I was involved in a case of this where a customer cut off a safety guard & sued when someone got injured.

Aaaand thats why we dont build cabinets to USA ;)
 
I see all the posters are American. I'm not surprised you all run scared of the consequences of trying to get what is rightfully yours when we read a woman gets a million dollars for spilling coffee on herself and other such liable cases.

It's a little different in the UK.


I'm surprised you had the time to research us all.

The coffee case went before a jury of normal people who got enough out of it to buy their lunches... If you know a better way to get the facts, we all would be glad to hear it :)
 
I see all the posters are American. I'm not surprised you all run scared of the consequences of trying to get what is rightfully yours when we read a woman gets a million dollars for spilling coffee on herself and other such liable cases.

It's a little different in the UK.
You've been watching too much TV. I think most "Americans" are trying to do what is morally and ethically right.
 
Thanks to all for your responce.
The reason I enquired about this is I think it is unethical especially when the customer has not been informed up front. I do NOT do business this way, however I work for someone and dont call the shots. I will refuse to do this, I can get another job if it comes to that. I will not compromise my principles.
 
I wasn't trying to stir up a wasps nest but I read a lot of comments like /get another customer / make it all clear in the spec / get all the money upfront etc.

Lovely if it happens like that, but it seldom does.
 
Ken, you can call it what you want, but like Aabeck says, it's a Logic Bomb to the courts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_bomb

When I went back to work for a builder back in the 90's, my boss was complaining that a plant that they had installed panels in wasn't paying up. The plant was mad at the prime, but we got caught in the crossfire and weren't getting paid.

I told him to get a Sheriff's lien and show up at the plant with a Porta-band (a portable bandsaw) and give them the option of either paying up, or having the equipment removed.

After several months he did just that, and the plant cut him a check on the spot.

There was no hard feelings between my company and the plant, they claimed to not have known that the prime hadn't paid off their subs and didn't hold it against my old company. And my company went on to do more work for the plant as well.
 
But Trelleborg (the company) builds complete manufacturing plants over here :)

And stop watching People's Court and Judge Judy

I know they do, but I guess they have local engineers etc and not a regular guy from Trelleborg (like me) doing it all, since Europe and USA is pretty diffrent in every aspect :)
 
A company that I worked for in the past had that wording in all sales contracts.
The biggest problem collecting came from the 2 generals.
As Bernie said, it wasn't a "bomb", the machine simply would not start in the morning.
If you do not pay your utility bill or internet it doesn't start. Same principal.
The customer has no grounds for legal action if he hasn't paid.
 
If someone did that to me or my company, the thread title would be "Badmouth until Bankrupt". Legal or not, never s**t in your customers lap.

I've been thinking about this...regardless of the ethical/legal question. Why can a customer s**t in a vendors lap, but the vendor can't s**t in the customers lap? After all, it's the customer's actions that resulted in the consequence. But yet the customer can "Badmouth until Bankrupt"? This is the reason these types of topics come up, vendors being forced to attempt to protect themselves.

Contracts/agreements are all fancy, but if the vendor is a little guy, trying to take legal action against a final payment probably won't result any anything but further financial loss both in legal fees and future business. Big companies know this.

Probably the only thing reasonable is to withold all final turnover items. Commented programs, electrical drawings, process descriptions, operations manual...etc. The things that could get sent to another vendor after they "use you and lose you".
 
I dont really see an issue with it... if they pay then no harm, better yet to remotely unlock it

It took me almost two years to get my money from these dumb asses http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=60769

$10,000 hit when you first start a company 6 months earlier its VERY hard to take that. Their sales are 30 mil a year.

I take PO's from schools only, people/companys do not pay and there is little you can do, one of the things that helped in the end was I told them I was going to come home for a family reunion and was going to pay them a visit, I was born in the city where they are (Detriot Mich)... sounds a little crude but if you take money away from my family I will truly hunt you down, if you do not plan on paying then do not place an order, if you need a loan go to a damn bank and them come and see me, why should I loan you money a PO is a short term loan, if I am going to give you money I would by your stock and have a chance on getting a return
 
Ask anyone: I get grumpy and argumentative whenever Southern Cal beats Notre Dame. Lost yet *another* Thanskgiving bet with my cousin this year and he'll gloat all winter.

Rootboy, that Wikipedia article was an interesting read.

Aabeck asserted that "To a lawyer & the courts it's legally called a "Time Bomb"". I disagreed, stating that the phrase "Time Bomb" is not a legal definition for the software function we are discussing.

"Logic Bomb" is a very good general definition of a similar software function, and a Wikipedia article with multiple citations from case law gives that definition weight.

But it's still not a legal definition. You won't find it any State or Federal Code, nor will you find it in Black's Law Dictionary or similar references. Wikipedia is not a legal reference or even considered a reliable source in most courts.

And I assert that even that general definition does not describe code that causes a production halt on an industrial control system with no intent to cause damage or losses.

Of the eighteen references in that Wikipedia article, four of them use the phrase 'Logic Bomb', and two of those put it in quotes.

Each of those cases (Makwana, Lin, Duchak) was a criminal charge under various parts of US Code Title 18, Section 1030. This is generally called the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and it describes a handful of criminal acts involving computers, computer systems, and networks. The phrases "logic bomb" or "time bomb" occur nowhere in that Federal law.

What rootboy described in his personal experience is an ordinary civil contract dispute with an ordinary court-ordered remedy (the Sheriff's lien).

What Aabeck described in his personal experience is an ordinary product liability case, with arguments about contributory negligence on both sides.

Neither of those anecdotes appear to describe a 'logic bomb' or involve personal liability or criminal proceedings.

Circling back to the OP's original question, we come to a middle-ground problem. Oldnerd followed up saying that he thinks that installing production-disabling logic is "unethical especially when the customer has not been informed up front. " I agree strongly with him.

Oldnerd's customer and his employer would have competing claims for breach of contract, and there's a chance that Oldnerd's employer would try to dodge responsibility by claiming that Oldnerd acted without authorization. This would probably be hashed out in civil court in the jurisdiction of the customer site.

But it would definitely not rise to the level of a Federal criminal charge.
 
Interesting thread!

My thinking is, if it has not been made clear in the initial contract, upfront, then I would have an ethical problem with doing so. And any smart businessman would have a reputation problem with doing so.

We had a customer not pay a bill for a small automated system we put in for them. Eventually we sent the debt collectors in. All done legally and with no risk of significant harm to reputation.

But at the end of the day, the main question I'd be asking myself is: with all the potential for this to go badly, whether it would/wouldn't end up in court, whether I would/wouldn't end up a scapegoat, whether it would/wouldn't end up making me unhireable for the rest of my life - why would I bother taking the risk?

I'm not doing the accounting department's dirty work. I'd rather hand in my notice and go home to a good night's sleep.
 

Similar Topics

Micrologix 1000 entered into suspend mode how to come out of this mode?
Replies
27
Views
7,066
So I just received more bad news from my Rockwell rep. Apparently they are discontinuing the following products: Kinetix 3, 300, 350, 2000 and...
Replies
3
Views
1,629
I made a small update to the PLC logic (GX developer). Then I wrote the updated code to the PLC (I did Online/write to PLC). I thought that would...
Replies
6
Views
1,522
I need to ramp up the psi on a pnuematic cylinder until the force on the piston, measured by a load cell, is met. Then I need the air pressure to...
Replies
9
Views
4,560
Just a rant if you will, but very few things bug me more than when a customer gives you zero direction on what they want, and then when you've...
Replies
17
Views
6,285
Back
Top Bottom