Webinar on SOPDT tuning

Excellent! Next time, I will use a mic, rather than chat window, and lock the shop door to keep my co-workers chatter down! I was afraid I would be lost in a maze of calculus or math that I didn't understand, but I was able to keep up a pretty good understanding of Peter and Pandiani's discussions.

Peter did a great job of communicating the concepts and it was priceless to see live graphs in action.

Thanks, Peter and Asim!
 
It was very interesting and informative.
First of all, Peter, thank you very much for your time and effort.
Thank you Paul for participating in the discussion.

This was great idea.
 
What I learned is that I should speed up the simulator or make the plant have faster time constants. I wanted to have values that are realistic though. The idea is that I could talk while the system is responding. That part went well enough.

I was trying to avoid the math and calculus as much as possible.
 
There is no recording. I didn't think about it until we were almost done. Also, the session was just over 2 hours long. I wanted to limit it to 2 hours. The pace seemed to be about right but the video would be very long almost like a movie.

Don't worry guys. I will do it again.

Now that I think about it I would like to know what OkiePC and Pandiani think I could do better.

Also, I think it is best if you test your computer before joining a webinar. It is best if you know your microphone and speakers work well. Pandiani and I Skype about every two to three weeks so we knew our computers would communicate well.
 
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Now that I think about it I would like to know what OkiePC and Pandiani think I could do better.

Also, I think it is best if you test your computer before joining a webinar. It is best if you know your microphone and speakers work well.

Peter, we maybe lost two or three minutes due to PC slowness, and remembering to start and stop the correct tasks, but everything else you did was just fine.

You are a clear speaker and good communicator. I regret not bringing in a microphone, but my office is an open environment with floor techs coming and going all day to use the other terminals in this area. Next time I will definitely bring a mic and post a "Meeting in Progress" sign or something to keep the guys quiet.

One suggestiong might be to watch the chat window if there are attendees without mics. Several times my typed questions were not noticed until a couple of minutes later, which was okay, but by the time you and Pandiani saw my comment, the context of the conversation had changed, but you did still figure out how to answer the questions quite well. I am a decent typist, but I sorely missed the ability to get into the conversation at the right times.

Thanks again.
Paul
 
Peter, was away for th w/e and only just seen your post, would definatly have joined in. Will you be running it again?

__________________________________
Like throwing mud ata wall - everytime you do, a little more sticks
 
I plan to hold another tuning SOPDT temperature webinar later in May or early in June. The last one gave me some ideas on how to make the webinar go more smoothly. Actually the last one went smoothly because only OkiePC and Pandiani asked any questions.

I plan to pre record all the simuations so I don't need to wait for response in real time. This will make viewing and swithing back and forth between the different control methods faster.
I think I need to break down the topics in to hour long sessions. I also need to turn on the recorder. Gotomeeting allows me to record the session. I can edit the session and maybe post it on YouTube.

I have implemented a Smith Predictor that allows me to compensate for up to 4 minutes of dead time at an update rate of one scan per second. The a webinar on the Smith Predictor would take about one hour AFTER the basics were understood.

The Smith Predictor requires that you have some sort of model for your plant. Since my plant is a virtual one I have the model. What I plan to do is to very the plant model in the predictor from the virtual model. This simulates the inability to exactly estimate gains, time constants and dead time which is closer to reality.

I have also implemented more tuning options. Before I implemented the IMC ( internal model control ) way of computing PID gains. IMC is the method used on the Control Guru site. There is my way of computing PID gains which results in more aggressive tuning. I may implement ZN tuning. I don't like ZN tuning but I may make an example just to compare the results of different tuning methods. I think I could go an hour on just comparing ZN with IMC and my tuning methods.

Also, my virtual plant is a SOPDT ( second order plus dead time ). What would happen if one used FOPDT ( first order... ) on a SOPDT? How would that affect the temperature control.

Finally, while I am geeking out, I think I may implement a non-linear system to tune like a heat exchanger. One would need to take into account the log mean temperature difference. I know that Tom asked about this long ago. The non-linear simulation will probably have to wait until later this summer.

Meanwhile, the simulator has been running since the last webinar. Pandiani has accessed the simulation after the webinar is over.
 
Outstanding. I can't wait. I have one just finished project that needs to be modelled. Perhaps your plant simulation can evolve to the point where you can provide all the autotuning methods as options with adjustable parameters.

I just did a cooling tower for ammonia refrigeration, and I need to smooth out the PV in my crude code, but the system is complex enough, and my knowledge of refrigeration is limited enough that I don't know what to apply as feedforward, for example.

I have a system that consists of two condenser assemblies, each consisting of four fans and two pumps, plus a spare pump that can be valved to either side. One of the four fans on each bank of coils is VFD controlled and monitored via analog signals and run command.

I don't have flow/power curves for the fans, but I can acquire room temps, vessel levels, outside air temp, and humidity as well as status and load levels of three rooms full of compressors.

My PV is discharge pressure of the condenser and the target is 160 PSI but that is adjustable, and I may need to add a setpoint scheduler in order to achieve optimal performance year round without overwhelming the SCADA GUI with details for the operator, but giving the same flexibility they have now.

Another goal is to reduce short cycling operations of d.o.l. starters to the (6 total) belt driven 10HP fans.

My use of PIDs usually goes out the window when I encounter systems with this many variables and I can always whip out code that handles all the what-ifs quite nicely. It's always an improvement but never good enough for me. If I can benefit from PID when the load of a system becomes more predictable, I tend use manual mode a lot and swap in logic that is more like "Select Case" with each case being whatever seems like it might work (and usually does okay).

All that time spent, should be auto-matable.
Radio buttons, tickboxes, and fill inthe blanks about the system model.

My condensing tower SCADA allows the tech to set a priority for each DOL device, and I have a 12 step sequencer advances in steps every 15 seconds. Then, the CV is bumped in the direction of the sign of the error, like P gain with 1 bit resolution ;)

The CV bump value (adjustable) is added to the VFD command (sent to both fans and adjustable) and there's a limit trap to roll it over and add/subtract from the displayed sequence step number. The operator can set any device to turn at any step number, and GEQ keeps them on in ladder logic.

I get the feeling that the pumps do a better job of cooling than the fans, but since they're d.o.l., I also prevent short cycling of them with on/off delay timers. I need to do visual observations and shorten these delays which can confound my logic.

I can keep the PV between +/- 5psi after recovering from start up and initial load, but there seems to be too little work accomplished by the fans. I think I would have been better off with one of the pumps on a VFD, and that is certainly something I could change.

I can screenshot charts from the IFix for the affected parameters and try to figure out patterns of cause and effect.

I think I also need to find a way to detect when product enters the spiral freezers to add load to the system.

[/ramble #1]
OkiePaulC.
 
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OkiePc, you should look at the the Scilab autotuning program here
http://www.deltamotion.com/peter/Scilab/AutoTune/
and look at the format of the .txt files. If your data is in that format then the Scilab auto tuning program should work for temperature systems.

Lostcontrol, I am aware of the timezone differences. I have customers in AU and NZ too and just yesterday I Skyped with some table tennis acquaintences twice. I would have to hold the training Friday so you could see it Saturday morning. I am hoping that by recording the session I can avoid doing it twice.

I am still getting my stuff together.
 

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