Why and how does motor current go up?

I started an earlier reply that I didnt submit, I have a problem with the term CEMF...I can see I am not the only one.

I have a tendency to mis-phrae things on here, I am done with that. If you want to view a site of a motor/drive manufacturer that has an abundance of info on this subject then look at the following:
http://www.reliance.com/mtr/
 
Thanks to elevmike for great info and links, and to everyone for great discussion. The lack of counter emf is evidently the correct reason for heavy startup currents,.. it's just a matter of having a feeling for counter-emfs. It's somewhat "counter"-intuitive to me (to make a slight pun) because at startup there are heavy currents in the rotor, which would seem to imply a counter emf into the stator coils due to a B field from the rotor currents (but i guess you couldn't call it a rotor if it wasn't rotoring then.) However, there are no rotor currents at sync speed and so it is not generating any B fields of its own to cause any emf in the stator coils. But indeed I suppose that it has a magnetic coupling with the rotating stator B field,... in that if one took away the stator field quickly there would be a change in flux through the cage loops which would cause currents to form, which would cause a rotating magnetic field of its own, which would cause changes of flux through the stator coils, which would cause an emf in them... Maybe that might be the invisible CEMF,.. i don't know,.. i'm just thinking out loud basically. ( I guess maybe one could say that at sync speed the rotor has been "inducted" into the frame of the rotating B field.)
In response to Dickdv's search for a torque vs slip speed curve,.. I saw this curve on a web site and I tried to locate it again but alas i couldn't find it. If i see it again i will post it The other side of the torque curve, where generator mode happens vs motor mode on the negative slip side, looked just like the motor mode side, only backwards and upside down. On the motor side the torque went up fast and linearly vs slip speed, then reached a maximum at maybe 10 or 15 percent slip, and then started decreasing again, but more slowly. On The generator side the torque went negative very fast in a linear fashion with a slip of opposite sign, just like it went positive on the other side. Then it bottomed out and started to go back towards zero, but more slowly.
BTW, i would like to correct my first post because i wrote that the change in B field caused an emf, where i meant to say the change in flux.
I would still be interested to know if taking a squirrel cage and putting it in the field of a big magnet on a table and turning it would cause a resistance to trying to turn it, analogous to the slip speed torque in a rotating field. If anyone has a squirrel cage rotor laying around and a big magnet to put it in maybe they could try this, unless they know of a reason why it wouldn't work or if they know 100% for a fact it would. As a kid i remember my best friend's stepfather had a magneto mounted on his bench in his basement. We would turn the crank to it and it would start sparking and shocking. It seemed to offer resistance to turning as i remember, but i can't remember if it might have had a flywheel attached to it.
cheers to all
 
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See there! It just goes to show that, if you want to learn, this BBS is a great place to do just that.

Thanks everyone for your input into this difficult subject. And, yes, JesperMP, I would very much like to have a copy of that torque-speed curve when its convenient to send it.

Thanks again.
 
I have studied the arguments for CEMF (in the same sense as CEMF in a DC motor) in an induction motor and I just don't see it.

In DC motor also current produced is a.c. it is commutator on the rotor which convert to DC.
 
Dick, Ron, and all..

They say elevator guys are the jack of all trades, and maters of none.

I'll second that phrase for sure. Like the Wright Brothers, elevator guys tend to take an engineering approch rather than a scinetific approch to problem solving. While Langley, and Bell were very concerned as to hows & whys lift is generated, the brothers made a wind tunnel, randomly tested airfoils, and applied the one that worked the best with out ever knowing really why or how it worked the best. Actually their sister is presumed to be the one to have taken their windtunnel data, and mathamatically figured out why and how. Obiviously they took a shortcut into the history books.

So to be honest with everyone here my theory here maybe a little lacking.. Therefore, since I'm not a "motor thoery expert" I may be using the term "CEMF" a little too loosly for some of the more scientificly minded posters here.

In my eduacational expierance, I was taught simply that CEMF is the opposing force (to the incoming power supply) produced when an inductor passes through a magnetic field, and that this phenomenon occurs in all devices where an inductor passes through a magnetic field. Based on this blanket statement this would occur in transformers, semiconductors, DC, and AC motors. For example: regeneration occurs when the driving force is less then the opposing force (CEMF) in the motor etc.

Dispite the exact proper termonology, I would suggest that if we all agree that the current passing through an inductive device is limited by the opposing force created by the device while in operatoion, then we are all on the same page. Therefore, when the opposing force is not present, or very much smaller than the driving force, there will be no limiting force, and as a result the RS (resident smoke) will be released by the device, thereby rendering the device totally usless.

Now that brings me to the Resident Smoke (RS) thoery which to me is totally baffeling. In many cases the release of RS will result in total lack of EMF and/or Counter EMF in a given device, however on the other hand it may just cause a total lack of Counter EMF, resulting in no opposing force, thereby releasing even more RS. Therefore does RS also create the opposing force, or simply allow the driving force to overcome the opposing force? Such as in the case that there is an overwhellimg mechanical opposing force, (aka Locked Rotor), the RS almost always seems to be released. Conversley in the case of lack of a driving force (single phasing), this also usually results in the release of RS. In either case, the motor seems to always stop functioning properly upon the release of RS. Therefore it is my thoery that there are actually TWO types of RS; EMF RS, amd CEMF RS which have yet to be confirmed since I cannot yet locate any published data on RS thoery. However it seems obivious to me that CEMF RS is a predominent factor in porper operation due to the fact that RS is released (in most case studys) due to the lack of an opposing force to the driving force. Therefore the resulting released RS is CEMF RS. Also supporting the thoery that the released RS is a Counter-Force, is the fact that once released, it tends to cause a Counter-Presents of anyone, (but the very brave), remaining in the area of the release.

Sorry guys... I couldnt resist... :rolleyes:
 
Colossalnut said:
On vacation Jesper? And still just can't stop thinking, can you? Hahahahaha...'tis a wonderful life, eh?
My vacation finished 2 weeks ago. And then it stopped raining, and the sun came out bawling
Now I am back in the line of fire, but when a simple and good question is asked on the forum I cant help but jump in.

By the way, I forgot to mention that there is an initial current spike at power on because the is no induction to counter it. Just like a transformer. It last a few milliseconds, and is not the same as the high starting current that lasts until the motor is up to speed. Most people talk about the starting current caused by the slip = oo at poweron at not the inrush current that lasts until the magnetic field has been built up. I think the term "inrush current" applies to the latter, as it is used when talking about transformers.
I think that it is what you are talking about in your first post.
 
Mike, ya crack me up! I couldn't have said it better myself. Three decades of intense study in the field of electrical/electronic devices have led me to one conclusion... All electrical and/or electronic devices are smoke-powered. If ya let the smoke out they no longer work!
 
Hi Jesper! Sorry ya got rained on. It's funny that this post has started generating so many replies a couple of years after its' initial posting. The subject is a good one though! Obviously many members are fascinated with the inner workings of a motor, but then, most of us are fascinated with the inner workings of everything ! I guess that's why we do what we do.... whatever that is.......Hahhahaha.... By the way, your comment about my post is correct, I think...
 
To DickDV

Finally, here is the curve that shows what happen when a motor changes from being a motor and becomes a generator:
[attachment]
The curve is normalised around the slip (S). So to the right is the torque (M) in motor mode. To the left in generator mode.
The points Mk and Sk comes from the "Klossch formula". Search for that if you need more theory to backup the picture.

edit: Hm. Should have downloaded it as a GIF in stead of a BMP file. Well you just have to download it and open it up yourself.
 
Thanks, JesperMP for the motor curve. It's essentially symetrical around the zero torque point as I suspected.

Always good to have a curve for the doubters out there.

Thanks again.
 
Well, if I can add my 2 cents' worth... This is the way I understand it:

First off, EMF is not voltage. EMF is an electromotive force (collective Homer-like "duhs" are NOT appreciated. ;) ). If there is a path, EMF is current. If there is no path, EMF is voltage. Normally there is a partial path which we call a load and EMF becomes a combination of Volts and Amperes, which we call "Voltamperes" or VA.

Now, since most people relate to EMF as it applies to generators, and generators have voltage regulators, the EMF produced is typically thought of as a fixed voltage with a varying current, giving us the maximum current part of its rating, which is really in KVA. One states that you can measure EMF in a motor by measuring the voltage. All of this is correct, but I hope my first paragraph of explanation helps clarify, somewhat, the concept of EMF.

Now, due to Farraday, we know that we get an EMF in a conductor when it has relative motion to a magnetic field. We call this type of EMF production: induction or induced EMF.

The stator has an EMF applied to it from the line. As the stator is a conductor and a complete path exists, a current flows and produces a magnetic field. This magnetic field grows and shrinks and changes polarity with the applied EMF's changes in amplitude and polarity.

This moving magnetic field cuts the stationary rotor conductors (squirrel cage or wound rotor work the same). The relative motion between the rotor windings/bars and the moving magnetic field produces an EMF in the rotor through induction. As the rotor is shorted with the end rings (assuming a squirrel cage), the EMF becomes a current. (Note: motors are made with superconductors for this explanation; the voltage component caused by IR drop is ignored.)

Now the stator has a current-produced magnetic field and the rotor has a current-produced magnetic field. At this instant, we have what is essentially a shorted transformer with its associated infinity-seeking current. The current is limited by the inherent resistance of the stator windings, the saturation point of the laminations, and the resistance of the rotor, and of course the impedances of the source. This high current is what we term "inrush current." Also at this instant, since we have not yet gotten rotation, all we're doing is making magnets in both the stator and rotor.

The rotor's magnetic field is produced by induction from the stator's excitation. By Lenz's law, ("An induced electromotive force generates a current that induces a counter magnetic field that opposes the magnetic field generating the current.") the magnetic fields must be in opposition to each other; producing a repelling force between the rotor and stator. We call this force "torque." Torque is essentially the strength of the rotor magnetic field times the strength of the stator magnetic field.

As an aside, I disagree with the first reference cited in that I understand motors to be turned due to the opposition of magnetic fields, not the attraction of them.

At this point, the fields are pretty much saturating the cores due to the high currents in both the stator and rotor, so maximum torque is produced; no more flux coupling is happening because we've run out of iron. This accounts for the changing torque on the torque to speed curve as the rotor changes its rotational speed and the inherent magnetic induction changes the rotor's EMF's frequency. In other words, as the rotor changes speed, the frequency in the rotor becomes less because the relative motion between the fixed applied EMF/magnetics and the moving rotor is decreasing. Lower frequency causes induction to become less efficient. Likewise, as we'll see shortly, stator current will also be decreasing causing a related lowering of magnetic field strength, but this is just detail illustrated by the curve.

Now, the rotor must be magnetized to get torque, and that magnet is now moving as it was meant to do. This produces an EMF in the Stator due to Farraday, once again (moving flux, stationary windings = relative motion). Now, current can't flow in two directions at the same time, so the induced and opposing EMF in the stator that is produced by the rotor cannot overcome the applied EMF from the line, as the applied EMF is the source of energy for this whole process. We call this opposing EMF Counter EMF or Back EMF.

Therefore, this induced EMF is presented as a voltage on the stator (remember, it can't be a current because that would be two currents flowing in opposite directions simultaneously) which can then be subtracted from the line-applied EMF/voltage on the stator, causing the apparent voltage (terminal voltage) felt by the windings to decrease. Therefore, the stator winding current decreases with this decrease in its perceived voltage.

Likewise, the rotor is coming up to speed and its current is decreasing as well due to the decreasing frequency difference between the applied stator flux and the rotational speed of the rotor. If the rotor's speed were to equal the applied flux's frequency, then there would be no relative motion between the windings and the flux, and no EMF would be produced in the rotor.

This loss of EMF causes the rotor to slow down due to loss of torque, and that causes the relative motion to return. This is a dynamically established balance within the motor; the rotor will turn at the proper speed to produce EMF required to produce the torque required to turn the motor at that speed.

When the load is increased on the motor shaft, the rotor slows, causing a greater difference between the rotor's speed and the stator's flux, causing more EMF in the rotor and therefore more torque. However, since the rotor is going slower, it produces less EMF and the stator's applied voltage therefore has less opposition and therefore its current goes up also contributing to an increase in torque.

I hope this wasn't too wordy. I tried to explain this in simple terms to the best of my understanding. I welcome criticism as I've arrived at this through my own meanderings, not from reading it in a text. The texts always seem to rely more on obfuscation and formulae rather than simple explanations of what's really happening.

I hope it helps.

Cheers.
 
I found out why my password wasn't working.... I'm not "Level" here.

What are you going to use it for? You website?

If you're not using it "for profit" then I don't mind you using it. You will probably have to clean it up, since I don't know if it is clear. I tend to write like I talk, which is too fast and too much. ;)

Don
aka "Level" when I can't remember my user name.
 

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