Why is it that we must always pull teeth? Year end rant.

[Peter Nachtwey]

It seems that the OPs always want to be secretive. Not just on this forum but also on reddit/control theory and especially on a Chinese forum we I am the moderator. The way this should go is the OP provides ALL the information for the question he asks. My only conclusion is that the OPs are so clueless they don't even know what is important.

When it comes to control theory like PIDs etc, the automation guy should have some guidance from senior person, hopefully and engineer. Leaving whole problem to poor automation guy is not right. It is no wonder so many places are so screwed up if they have control theory problems.

 

[drbitboy]

My only conclusion is that the OPs are so clueless they don't even know what is important./QUOTE]


LOL.


Ya' think?

 

[harryting]

It's not intentional.

It takes a lot of thinking to know what to put down so other knows what you are talking about. We all do it to some degree. It's all about unstated assumptions human makes. Really telling when it comes to internet argument about hot topics of the day.

Looking back, i wish college would teach more about the science and art of thinking. Speaking of which, here's a plug for one of fav book on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/Skeptics-Guide-Universe-Really-Increasingly/dp/1538760533

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

It's not intentional.

This is sad. This shows the OPs don't really understand the problem. How can you control something you don't understand AND if the OP gets a good answer, will the OP understand it?

 

[SD_Scott]

PID questions are particularly challenging because it can be difficult to describe/understand the entire process. Also, the process was likely designed by one department and the control system by another department. I remember a fractionator refurbishment project many years ago. The process engineers designed a system that was right out of the textbook. Should have been a slam dunk. Nope. Months of rework and additional programming were required. It never really worked as desired.

I would also add they were are seeing a real generational shift. Many issues today are related to generations. I do a lot of research on generations.

 

[lostcontrol]

There are a few reasons for this
Some is that people just don’t understand the problem
Others are that people don’t understand how to come up with a solution or ask the right person for help
Another thing I see, is that people cannot articulate what they are trying to understand or communicate effectively so that they can be helped

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

More ranting.

PID questions are particularly challenging because it can be difficult to describe/understand the entire process.

I can understand that but isn't there someone at the company that can educate the poor automation guys on the process. Isn't there documentation? Probably not, why not?
In for years of doing control of different types I have NEVER SEE DOCUMENTATION!
I am not really as mad at the poor automation guy that is expected to make their kludge run as I am at the management that puts the poor automation guy in a no win situations.

Also, the process was likely designed by one department and the control system by another department.

If the kludge is designed within the company there should be documentation and someone to educate the automation guy. However, I have been at startups where there is NO documentation or wiring diagrams.

I remember a fractionator refurbishment project many years ago. The process engineers designed a system that was right out of the textbook. Should have been a slam dunk. Nope. Months of rework and additional programming were required. It never really worked as desired.

Not very good process engineers. After 40 years I have run into a handful of real designers. The next tier are the" evolvers", those that modify existing designs. The worst group are the "kludgers" that have no clue.. I don't wish these guys any body. These are the guys that would sleep through Tom's class.

I would also add they were are seeing a real generational shift. Many issues today are related to generations. I do a lot of research on generations.

??? I don't know the context of generations. Are you talking about generations of people or generating something else?

 

[JeremyM]

Peter,

There’s a few types of people in this world: those that blindly drill-down to learn (takers), those that are bottom-up learners (makers), and those that are sales.

 

[SD_Scott]

I was referring to people generations. In a nutshell:

Tough times create strong men.
Strong men bring good times.
Good times create weak men.
Weak men bring tough times.

This has been documented by many great researchers including Neil Howe, who wrote the great book The Fourth Turning. He describes in detail how each generation plays a role and how that role affects the times. It's fascinating. BTW, we are in a fourth turning now. It happens about every 80 or so years.

Revolutionary War
Civil War
Great depression WWii
Now

Cheers

 

[SD_Scott]

More ranting.

I can understand that but isn't there someone at the company that can educate the poor automation guys on the process. Isn't there documentation? Probably not, why not?
In for years of doing control of different types I have NEVER SEE DOCUMENTATION!
I am not really as mad at the poor automation guy that is expected to make their kludge run as I am at the management that puts the poor automation guy in a no win situations.


If the kludge is designed within the company there should be documentation and someone to educate the automation guy. However, I have been at startups where there is NO documentation or wiring diagrams.


Not very good process engineers. After 40 years I have run into a handful of real designers. The next tier are the" evolvers", those that modify existing designs. The worst group are the "kludgers" that have no clue.. I don't wish these guys any body. These are the guys that would sleep through Tom's class.


??? I don't know the context of generations. Are you talking about generations of people or generating something else?

All excellent points. This particular upgrade was a non reflux unit that used Taylor Fullscope pneumatic controllers. We added a reflux loop, new bubble trays, new heat exchangers and Allen Bradley PLC 5/15(ish) controller. I cut my teeth on Taylor Fullscopes. My dad was the grand master of those things. I got one for Christmas one year when I was in grade school.

The problem with these upgrades is there is no pilot plant to develop this stuff. We would do a turnaround every 6 months and the difference in performance from month 1 to month 6 was night and day. The heat exchangers would foul over time and become less efficient. Nobody could figure out why they fouled so bad. We would have to lower the feed rate to make up for it which it wasn't designed for. That caused other issues with the other loops. The tuning params for all the loops had to be changed over the course of the 6 month period. I had to write all sorts of PLC code to make the PID controls smarter. When the turnaround was done, we would simply load the base params in and run it. In the end we learned to live with it. It became my own personal pilot plant. I learned a lot. Many Many other stories. It was a transmix fractionator BTW.

Cheers

 

[danw]

My only conclusion is that the OPs are so clueless they don't even know what is important.

I can deal with the cluelessness if the OP's are willing to work at providing answers to questions. But when they are too lazy to answer questions and just repeat their perception of the problem (my car won't start) over and over again, then I phase out. It's their problem, not mine.

 

[JesperMP]

I have for a long time decided to not engage in any thread where the OP doesn't provide all the necessary information in the 1st post, or at least attempts to do so.
And if I ask for some clarification and the OP doesn't respond promptly, I just disengage. I don't complain or continue in any way, I just disengage.

I do wish there was a simple 'thumbs down' vote or similar, but I guess something like that will never happen on this forum.

 

[arpus4KM]

This is sad. This shows the OPs don't really understand the problem. How can you control something you don't understand AND if the OP gets a good answer, will the OP understand it?

I've ran into the issue that the OP or more generally, the people needing help, have gotten deep into something they thought they knew how to deal with and then came to the realization that they were in over their head.

It's akin to hearing someone who thinks they are the authority on something attempt to explain a concept, and only sounding intelligent to people who know less than they do, when you sit them next to an expert on the matter, they are as clueless as the rest. It's just they didn't realize how much they didn't know.


The Dunning-Kruger Effect.

They are on the top of mount stupid, where they think they know all they need to know (mostly) and have not even begun to understand how deep the rabbit hole goes. Whereas an expert in the matter will actively acknowledge a lack of understanding and ask questions of their own questions.

 

[arpus4KM]

I have for a long time decided to not engage in any thread where the OP doesn't provide all the necessary information in the 1st post, or at least attempts to do so.
And if I ask for some clarification and the OP doesn't respond promptly, I just disengage. I don't complain or continue in any way, I just disengage.

I do wish there was a simple 'thumbs down' vote or similar, but I guess something like that will never happen on this forum.

Remove the clutter so we don't have 10,000 posts of people asking for help changing HMI tags without knowing how HMIs and Tags interact...

Add a Vote for Deletion button. More than X votes gets sent for admin approval and removed from the system.

 

[drforsythe]

In my opinion, there are two problems here:
1) OPs who do not know the details they are missing.
2) Responders who provide answers without having the information that they need to provide a solution to the OPs problem.


In regards to number 1, if the OPs knew all of the details to their problems, maybe they could solve the problems themselves. Let's educate the OP so they know how to ask a question. Ask for more details and don't answer until the details are provided. We can help promote the detailed thought process by only responding to behavior that is positive (in our opinion).

Regarding 2, some of the longest threads on sites like this are filled with assumptions and speculation on what the OP wanted. If we simply asked for clarification and did not respond until the clarification came, these threads could be simplified. We are supporting this behavior by keeping threads alive when the OP doesn't respond to basic clarification questions. I frequent another forum that has a LOT less activity because if the OP doesn't respond to questions, no one responds and the thread goes away. If the OP has an urgent problem but does not respond when a question is asked, maybe it is not as important as some responders think it is. Maybe we should be retuning our own PID loops (responses and conjecture) to not be over-responsive to the actual system's constraints and ability to respond (OP's lack of details and answers).