Why is it that we must always pull teeth? Year end rant.

[drbitboy]

Maybe the way to do this have a form instead of a free-form text box in response the the [start a thread] button.

If the form is not adequately filled out, then the query is not posted.

We could have a separate forum for general comments/discussion.

The form could have sections like

• General description
  • Industry (wastewater, petrochem, etc.)
  • Process description
    • P&ID or sketch
    • constraints
    • safety constraints
  • Makes and models of hardware
• Skill level
• Over what timescale/time-zone can/will you check for a reply, and/or respond to queries for more information?
• Type of problem
  • Wiring
  • Installing software
  • Running software
  • Comms
    • serial
    • ethernet/TCP
    • device
    • ...
  • Networking issue
    • E/IP
    • Modbus
    • Profi*
    • TCP/IP
    • Device
    • ...
  • Programming an algorithm and/or logic
  • Feedback Control/PID
  • ...
• What is the problem?
  • What do you want/expect it to do?
  • What is it actually doing?
  • Screenshots of trends
  • Urgency
  • ...
• What has been tried?
  • Zip your code, or better yet, PDF
  • More screenshots of trends
  • Relevant URLs (manuals, etc.)
  • ...
• ...

 

[mk42]

The way this should go is the OP provides ALL the information for the question he asks. My only conclusion is that the OPs are so clueless they don't even know what is important.

I've been on both sides of this: the asking and the answering. While there are definitely plenty of askers who provide too little information, I find that answerers are often daunted by too much.



Often the answerer latches onto the first thing they see in the message and ignores the rest. Not necessarily talking about people doing things for free on this fine forum, more people for whom it is theoretically their job to answer my questions (and also everyone else's, I'm not special) tech support, internal topic experts, etc. ALL THE INFO means it turns into a wall of text, which makes the reader disinterested, which means I get a low quality answer.



It can be really hard to find the right balance of just enough info to get interest without overloading the person you're asking. Do I detail my troubleshooting process to help skip some steps, or just wait for the inevitable equivelent of "yes I already reset the cable modem".



As a related issue, a lot of the questions asked here are really XY questions: OP is asking the wrong question, and we have to drag out of them what they are really doing. This is a little bit different than OP not providing enough information, they just don't know enough to know which assumptions to question.

 

[Steve Bailey]

Maybe the way to do this have a form instead of a free-form text box in response the the [start a thread] button.

If the form is not adequately filled out, then the query is not posted.

We could have a separate forum for general comments/discussion.

The form could have sections like

Take a couple aspirin and go to bed. When you wake up, forget you made that suggestion.

If the OP doesn't respond to your request for more information, stop posting. It's that simple.

 

[parky]

There are many reasons for the quality of OP's posts, some people find it difficult to put into words what they are trying to do, some just blatantly use others knowledge because they are lazy, some peoples command of a language is either limited or if their native one just are not very good at it, (this does not mean they are dumb in many cases).
Some criticise others for trying to help.
My stance is I will try to give the best information if I think I know the answer, ask questions to try & find what the OP really is getting at. We all have replied without understanding the problem, either because it has not been presented in a good way or we have not read the posts correctly.
The one thing I do not like is when the OP's take others experience & does not give feedback. unfortunately, it's human nature, there are those who give, those who take & those who do both. I have been a member since 2002, I have only posted a couple of original posts, only one I think was to ask for help, but I realise there are many out there who are willing to learn even if their knowledge is limited. It is easy to criticise when you are experienced, I think this site has a good mix, plenty of expertise & I enjoy helping if I can.
Now that I'm retired, it is difficult to keep up with the changing field of controls, have limited resources i.e. platforms to use, however, where possible, I will post examples, try to only use functions that are pertinent to the platform or do it longhand (it is a problem when a platform has a function like word to bit, where others may not) so I try to do it in code that can be used elswhere) Also, very often rather than create code that mimics the "oozlum bird" (look that one up) I expand code so all though it looks long winded, does not bamboozle the OP.
Oh... Happy new year to you all....

 

[Puddle]

code that mimics the "oozlum bird" (look that one up)

I've written that bit of code before, then bitten my pencil in half trying to work out where I went wrong.

the bird will take off and fly around in ever-decreasing circles until it manages to fly up its own backside, disappearing completely

I've mostly been the OP on here, I always find that if I'm stuck with something then asking for help allows me to immediately find the solution. I would like to think that I'm slightly better than the "car won't start" level of threads. I try to avoid posting a wall of text, which may lead to missing some detail out, but I always try to post how the problem was solved to aid the next person who's googling for the same issue.

 

[Soggy Canuck]

Ah yes, the dreaded ghost posters.

Their first few posts are usually full of handwringing angst, the follow-uo posts make it obvious that they either misunderstood the querys for further information or ran out to the plant floor and went to some other machine.

This is followed by the sound of crickets.

I have often wondered if the lack of followup was due to to a) the OP being escorted from the premises before he/she blew something up or b) the OP was being dragged from the premises because he/she set the building on fire.

As a side note; some of the followup commentary on said ghost posters has been downright hilarious. Almost retro-encabulator worthy.

 

[rQx]

Sometimes the answers are also to precise. I find that a simple question can often lead to a very and unnecessarily complicated answer. We must also accept that the solution to things musn't always be the most advanced, sometimes a good enough solution is good enough for several users. Not all are working on industrial plants that need 100% uptime and experts in control.

Ofcourse it's good with an indepth answers also for educational purpose

 

[I_Automation]

Sometimes the answers are also to precise. I find that a simple question can often lead to a very and unnecessarily complicated answer. We must also accept that the solution to things musn't always be the most advanced, sometimes a good enough solution is good enough for several users. Not all are working on industrial plants that need 100% uptime and experts in control.

Ofcourse it's good with an indepth answers also for educational purpose

Another thing is too technical could be over the head of the person inquiring.


Just think - a middle-school child asks a graduate school senior how/why something works and the senior tells him as he would tell another senior level engineer. That kid would understand 3 words ("when", "if" & "percent") and go right to his Playstation.

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

Another thing is too technical could be over the head of the person inquiring.

Often I think you are right, but where is the supervisor? I still answer questions for the guys at work so they are only "lost" for a little bit.

Just think - a middle-school child asks a graduate school senior how/why something works and the senior tells him as he would tell another senior level engineer. That kid would understand 3 words ("when", "if" & "percent") and go right to his Playstation.

My Peter Ponders PID YouTube channel is like that. From the analytics, I know that many people are lost after watch three minutes because they don't have the background. So they go back play with their Play Station. My intro gives fair warning. Most people expect something like "this gain does this and that gain does that" kind of explanation. No, I derive all the formulas. If you can follow my YT videos then you have really had your eyes opened.


I have only 503 followers after many years. I am not making any money off my YT channel

 

[arpus4KM]

Often I think you are right, but where is the supervisor? I still answer questions for the guys at work so they are only "lost" for a little bit.



My Peter Ponders PID YouTube channel is like that. From the analytics, I know that many people are lost after watch three minutes because they don't have the background. So they go back play with their Play Station. My intro gives fair warning. Most people expect something like "this gain does this and that gain does that" kind of explanation. No, I derive all the formulas. If you can follow my YT videos then you have really had your eyes opened.


I have only 503 followers after many years. I am not making any money off my YT channel

have you tried using a misleading thumbnail of a scantily clad woman and the caption "Rockwell HATES this one simple trick!!!!"

 

[I_Automation]

have you tried using a misleading thumbnail of a scantily clad woman and the caption "Rockwell HATES this one simple trick!!!!"

Lately it seems the trick is to put a banner across the scantily clad woman the reads FLAT EARTH or PREPARE NOW for the preppers.

 

[durallymax]

Often I think you are right, but where is the supervisor? I still answer questions for the guys at work so they are only "lost" for a little bit.

I think you're making a gross assumption that everyone is working in a large scale industrial processes with a plethora of overhead engineers and management.

Along those same lines, blaming the OP for a lack of upper management providing those resources (if applicable), when OP is simply trying to accomplish the task at hand.

You imply OP should not be asking the question if they don't have an intimate understanding of the process. If they did, why are they hear? How do you develop knowledge without questions?

I'm a relatively inactive poster so perhaps there has been a rash of homework posts lately that prompted this and I'm out of the loop. A poor post has little to do with knowledge and everything to do with a willingness to understand and admit defeat. A good OP post is NOT a wall of text with every detail IMO. A good OP post clearly and concisely states the issue, the goal, and possibly a couple solutions that were already attempted.

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

I think you're making a gross assumption that everyone is working in a large scale industrial processes with a plethora of overhead engineers and management.

No, there are too many posts made by poor automation people that have no clue. My rant is that the poor automation guy is often told to do something that is not optimal by someone higher up that is clueless.

Along those same lines, blaming the OP for a lack of upper management providing those resources (if applicable), when OP is simply trying to accomplish the task at hand.

I know that but a little research before asking the questions would be good. Too many times we are expected to read minds and their minds are blank.

You imply OP should not be asking the question if they don't have an intimate understanding of the process. If they did, why are they hear? How do you develop knowledge without questions?

Who do I ask?

I'm a relatively inactive poster so perhaps there has been a rash of homework posts lately that prompted this and I'm out of the loop. A poor post has little to do with knowledge and everything to do with a willingness to understand and admit defeat. A good OP post is NOT a wall of text with every detail IMO.

Homework problem should be easy because the homework problem should provide all the information necessary. It is when the OP has a real application and doesn't tell us what it is.

A good OP post clearly and concisely states the issue, the goal, and possibly a couple solutions that were already attempted.

Yes, often the OP asks a question without even stating what the application is. We are given incomplete details. If the OP told us what the application is, chances are it has been done before many times or at least something similar to it.


What I really hate is wasting my time providing the right answer to the wrong problem because the problem/application wasn't properly stated.

 

[mobil1syn]

I have only 503 followers after many years. I am not making any money off my YT channel

make that 504

 

[I_Automation]

make that 504

So if I follow next I could be 5/05? Hopefully Ser C FRN10