You wouldn't believe it!

[Sliver]

Ok, I'm using an old marketing trick to get your attention but I need your feedback and a means to vent.
As a few of you who have seen my previous posts may know I work in a 90% Modicon environment.
I have been using MODSOFT for 16 years since the P-190 'portable' programmer crapped out. Most Modicon users know that MODSOFT has been long discontinued and not supported by Schneider (Modicon). Windows versions after Win98 do not support access to the com port in DOS programs.
I have been lobbying hard and long to upgrade to Proworx (NXT,32). My "Lead Hand" tried to renew the software liscence fo MODSOFT a few years back and instead recieved Proworx32. It went in the drawer for 2 years.
I lobbied for a year to get it out of the drawer and start using it,get some training, get into the 21st century.
We got training on Proworx32 ver1. It had some problems. Good reason(excuse) to do nothing.
I kept lobbying especially when the crew here informed me that Ver2 was out and was less 'buggy'.
Another year went by and we got the training.

Last year I was asked to upgrade the logic on a remote stacker that is powered by a 984-680. The old logic was so convoluted and poorly documented that I decided early on that my best tactic would be to import the MODSOFT configuration into PW32 and start from scratch on logic and docs.
Yesterday I finished an Alpha version and installed it on the machine and it is working away as we speak. Needs some more shake down testing but its miles ahead already of the old logic.

I have been keeping my supervisor aware of the progress and since the rest of the guys have had PW32 training but virtually no real world experince I thought that a transistion plan could work thus.
Document the heck out of the program in PW32 and print two hardcopies. (office/field)
Make a backup of the 984 ladderlogic in both MODSOFT and PW32.
If one of the other Electricians needs to access the logic they can chose to go online with MODSOFT and reference the hardcopy for documentation. Seem reasonable?

I brought it up in the daily planning meeting today and was told that I was risking crashing the PLC, corrupting the program, by using both PROWORX32 and MODSOFT to access the same PLC.

Apparently it was not recommended to switch back and forth by the PROWORX32 trainer. (I missed that in my class)I understand that the documentation needs to reside in one place but other than that what is wrong with my transition plan?

The question is...

Does the PLC care which software is used to access it's logic?

I await your responses,

Thanks,
Brian.

 

[Jim Dungar]

984LL is 984LL. The processor does not care what software created the ladder program. The primary difference between software packages is the symbols/documentation offering. Modsoft and ProWORX are realy nothing but HMIs to the 984LL that is downloaded (or is that uploaded?)to the processor.

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

Does the PLC care which software is used to access it's logic?

We used to download custom loadables into a Modicon using Modsoft and then read the data back into Graysoft and Taylor software because only Modsoft could load the customer loadable correctly at that time ( mid '90s ). When then would up load the code into Graysoft and Taylo. This code was used as the core of many PLC projects. Our customer that used Taylor or Graysoft could use these cores with the custom loadables already loaded. These cores had a custom loadable that had true signed and unsigned math routines and array indexing routines that were superior to Modicon's cripple BCD math and T->R and R->T moves. Shudder.

The point is that I don't think it does. I think there will be a problem with different software packages having different formats for the projects so the data bases will not be compatible.

 

[wwtptech]

Brian,
I have found that if you go online with either program and the Modsoft program or the Proworx program do not match the PLC program, you ar given the option to either download from PC to PLC or PLC to PC.
My rule of thumb is to always load from PLC to PC when I get this message and then make any online changes after that. I do this even before I make offline changes so that I am sure I always have a fresh copy of the program.

Just my $.02

Daryl

 

[Sliver]

Now I've been informed (by lead hand) that he contacted the Schneider rep and was told,

"You are risking unexpected PLC operation, therefore Life and Limb of anyone near the Machine operated by a PLC that has been accessed with both MODSOFT and Proworx32."

I asked for the e-mail of this Schneider rep. I am still waiting.

Anyone have any openings in a first-class automation heavy, industrial electrical shop? I need a break from pounding my head against this particular wall.

Brian.

 

[Jim Dungar]

There is absolutely no Schneider documentation that would support your "lead hand's" statement.

 

[jvdcande]

Now I've been informed (by lead hand) that he contacted the Schneider rep and was told,

"You are risking unexpected PLC operation, therefore Life and Limb of anyone near the Machine operated by a PLC that has been accessed with both MODSOFT and Proworx32."

I asked for the e-mail of this Schneider rep. I am still waiting.

Anyone have any openings in a first-class automation heavy, industrial electrical shop? I need a break from pounding my head against this particular wall.

Brian.

Now, that's one of the oldest market tricks there is: tell somebody without the needed knowledge he/she does need the new software or it could damage the goods and you have sold yet another package. It's the same trick IBM/Microsoft used in the late 70's / early 80's which made the combination worst computer architecture around / worst OS around the leading edge combination. That last sentence is of course my own look at things, sorry if I offended some hardcore Micro$oft adepts.

Kind regards,

 

[Sliver]

Thanks guys, just don't know how to proceed, now that the "safety" card has been thrown down. I think my unofficial practice will have to be to continue on with what I know to be functional and safe and 'officially' shut up. I hate this.

Brian.

 

[Money4Nothing]

Thanks guys, just don't know how to proceed, now that the "safety" card has been thrown down. I think my unofficial practice will have to be to continue on with what I know to be functional and safe and 'officially' shut up. I hate this.

Brian.

When the safety card gets thrown down on the statement of one individual, be he qualified or not, you must force the statement to be proven by documentation. Always, always, always documentation. With as much political tact as possible, insist that these seemingly false claims be verified beyond the heresay of one product rep. Then you are on the right track.

$

 

[Sliver]

update

Today, my supervisor who is almost 20 years my junior and was shipped up from one of our US plants last year, declared that he had made a decision.
He had just returned from a single day of 984LL training and the instructor had calmed his fears about transistioning to Proworx32 from MODSOFT.
I asked if he had asked the instructor about the incompatibility of the two programs used on a PLC.
He was told apparently that it was OK to access with both but you shouldn't make any changes with MODSOFT once you had switched to Proworx32.
Of course we all know that the instructor was referring to the problem with losing the documentation, but he is still convinced that it could cause PLC functionality problems. urgggh!
That's when he announced that we would immediately be proceeding to convert all 30 or so of our PLCs over.
(I know , we will be converting the doc files, I know, the 984LL will be the same.)
Once a PLC was 'converted' (praise the Lord) it was never to be accessed with MODSOFT.
It just happened that the 'Lead Hand' was absent for this announcement. I wonder how he is going to react.

I was trying to make a flexible transistion and he basically forced the supervisor into demanding an inflexible and immediate transistion.
As long as there is progress I am happy.

I hope this thread will be ecouraging to those who are held back by dinosaurs.
If you are fortunate there comes a big change to cause them to have to evolve or face extinction.

thanks all,

Brian.

 

[adul]

As we known the PLC CPU will execute only the code in machine language (assembly language e.g. siemens named MC5 for S5, MC7 for S7),It will not care what kind of software you use to create it Windows or DOS because at the end the compiler will translation to machine language if you can download the CPU can execute. It's doesn't know which OS,software version you create from.