Good Industrial Troubeshooting Articles

Coachman

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Sep 2006
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One of the hardest things for me to do ,is to step back and let our Maintenance staff try to solve a problem without getting involved. I know I have to learn to do this so they will learn, but
it sometimes leads to alot more downtime. It seems like I have lost
some troubleshooting skills thru the years ,so I would like another group to take over. I did this yesterday ,and it turned into a lost
day of production.
What I would like to teach them is that every attempt to solve the problem needs to be thought out and eliminated. My question is,
does anyone know of any good websites, or good articles that I can
use to help them be better troubleshooters. The good thing is ,
these guys want to get better.I just don't want to let them down.

Thanks in advance,
 
Try the method of 7 Whys. I try to teach the guys I work with to go through seven whys to think this out.

For example: The machine won't run.
Why (1) - the main breaker is tripped
Why (2) - there's an overcurrent situation
Why (3) - Motor 1A is the problem
Why (3) - Overload is set wrong and tripped main breaker instead
Why (4) - Overloads were tripping too much in the past week
Why (5) - Motor pulling too much current
Why (6) - Gearbox has no oil in it.
Why (7) - Leaking seal

You could go on for some of these individually but the basic concept is that if you ask why enough, you will get to a root cause and that can be corrected (instead of a band-aid like turning up the OL).
 
I think brucechase's example is very valid. Many problem resolutions follow this general pattern. However, it also glosses over one of the hard parts. Whys 1 and 2 go together and have a very direct consequential relationship. Whys 3 through 7 also go together and go through a solid consequential progression. Making the leap from 2 to 3 is the really hard part. Why did you pick Motor 1A? Why not motor 2B or the control transformer?

I think this is usually where things break down. It all comes down to knowing what one expects to see at every point along the way. That requires some knowledge of the system you are dealing with as well as a general understanding of how components work together. There really isn't a shortcut here. You just have to learn the stuff.

What brucechase is talking about really is logical thinking. Any class or program that focuses on that will be useful. Outside of that I think you are doing the right thing. Experience is really the thing that will make these guys better. It would be nice for them to gain this experience without costing the company production. But unless you build yourself a lab I don't see an alternative.

Keith
 
What is their background?

The approach differs depending on what the base level of knowledge and experience is. They may need to be built up with basic physical concepts and math before you tackle good engineering practices.

If they don't understand the underlying principles every new situation is unique to them. What you get from that is "parts replacers".
 
One thing you can't stress enough is to NOT immediately assume that the root cause is something complicated. We have a very talented staff here and we all catch ourselves jumping into the deep end occassionaly before checking the simple stuff first. Ask yourself, "Is it plugged in?"
 
wildswing said:
One thing you can't stress enough is to NOT immediately assume that the root cause is something complicated. We have a very talented staff here and we all catch ourselves jumping into the deep end occassionaly before checking the simple stuff first. Ask yourself, "Is it plugged in?"

This is one of the best pieces of advice I can think of!

When a pump/motor/fan/widget wont run my question is - "Wheres the ESD Button?"
Why? Because its usually pushed in.

Sometimes it can be something obscure but 95% of the time its something really dumb.
 
One of the things I try to teach the young guys if to ask questions of the operator or himself.
What was going on when it stopped working? What where you trying to do when it stopped?
Good information can help you zero in on the part of the task that is the root of the problem.
And like other have added, Never jump to a conclusion make sure your on the right track before you jump.
Helping them walk down an Elect. print while testing will also help find the point of the problem also.
There may be several switch's on the same input. What one is open? and Why?
 
Another couple to watch out for:

Operators will always try (helping) by telling you whats wrong with the machine. Always put that to one side and ask what is happening on the machine, and what is not happening. Then establish why.

A lot of machines have faults that look very similar, but usually one key fact will point towards the root of the problem.

For example we have register control systems on our presses that if a previous print unit has corrected, all following units will start to correct pre-empting the "error" that is just about to hit them. A common complaint used to be "The register system is faulty again, it keeps moving out of fit". 99% of the time the problem is caused by the unit before having a mechanical problem. So the register system was dooing its utmost to correct errors, but just could not keep up. The test used was to turn off the register control of the faulty unit, then you could see much larger (than would normally be seen) register errors appearing.

The mechanical people would always swap all the pcb's thinking it was an electronic fault.
 
I believe there is a thread on RSDoran site? that conatins this text
I only had this as reference to show some apprentices.
Perhaps it will answer some of your questions.

 
LOL......do you know how many times i get the floor and i am told the "Computer is screwed up again"....i ask whats going on..they tell me it loads 4 fine and then messes up 2 then loads 30 great and then screws up 6...i now have most of them convinced that if the "computer" screws up it will screw them up all the time...after i ask what i ask what happens at the time..like after the 3 rows are in the gate what happens next..they then say the case has to be in underneath...then a blank look..then they bend down and see the limit switch hanging by a thread...talking to the operators is the key...also knowing what questions to ask...

some people just cant be taught troubleshooting..others have it naturally

was called in the other day the new electrician at the plant i work at (i am a contractor..they use me as a back up if the sparky isn't around or for projects) couldn't get a machine to run..it had been down for 2 hours..i arrive...i put the machine on manual and push a button while looking at the relays in the machine..(the I/O is 24vdc but the solenoids are 110v)..the relay click's in...but nothing happens..i check the 110V fuse and its burnt...5 mins...vs 2 hrs... he said he didn't know because he could not find the drawings for the machine....IMO he didn't need drawings...just common sense
 
SLC_Integrator said:
This is one of the best pieces of advice I can think of!

When a pump/motor/fan/widget wont run my question is - "Wheres the ESD Button?"
Why? Because its usually pushed in.

Sometimes it can be something obscure but 95% of the time its something really dumb.

I couldnt agree more
 
Greetings Coachman ...



here are some thoughts that have worked well for me over the years ...



One of the hardest things for me to do, is to step back and let our Maintenance staff try to solve a problem without getting involved.



that “non-involvement” idea might be considered a mistake ... would you hand a student a math book and remain “non-involved” until he figured out all of the material on his own? ...



let me suggest an alternative technique that I’ve found to be VERY effective ... try watching the student’s approach to a problem while you “keep-your-hands-in-your-pockets” so to speak - and then “get involved” at key points along the way ...



for one example: suppose that the student takes a “correct” troubleshooting step ... by “correct” I mean that it was a LOGICAL step - taken in the RIGHT direction ... here I’d tend to “get involved” by asking why that particular step was chosen ... maybe (hopefully) the reason makes PERFECT sense - in that case, I’d try to reinforce the idea with a compliment ... if it was just a lucky shot-in-the-dark guess, then I’d tend to be much less complimentary ...



for another example: suppose that the student takes an “incorrect” troubleshooting step ... by “incorrect” I mean that it was either an ILLOGICAL step - or it was a step taken in the WRONG direction ... (for the sake of discussion, let’s suppose that there are no SAFETY issues involved) ... here I’d tend to “wait and see” ... specifically, I wouldn’t immediately “get involved” - just as long as the “incorrect” step won’t take too much time - or take too many resources - to try out ... basically I’d want to see if the student can realize - and recover from - his mistake on his own ...



suppose he DOES realize his mistake - or suppose that he DOESN’T ... either way, I’d still “get involved” at some point along the way (usually sooner rather than later) by asking why that incorrect step was chosen in the first place ...



was it because the student didn’t understand the basic concepts of what he’s working on? ... or maybe he misinterpreted something that someone had told him previously? ... or maybe just a dumb, wild guess that didn’t pan out? ... whatever - I’d try to help the student better understand the troubleshooting process by pointing out the differences between “correct” steps - and “incorrect” steps ...



“positive reinforcement” ... “constructive criticism” ... whatever buzzwords you want to attach to it, the idea is to help the student recognize the patterns between what WORKS - and what DOESN’T ... if he doesn’t appreciate those PATTERNS, then he’ll be doomed to using hunt-and-peck techniques forever ...



let’s look at another example this way: ... a machine is down - a technician is trying to troubleshoot it and repair it ... there are basically only TWO possible outcomes to that situation ...



(1) the technician is SUCCESSFUL ... so maybe he learned a lesson along the way - maybe he didn’t ... and life goes on ... or ...



(2) the technician is UNSUCCESSFUL ... so maybe he learned a lesson along the way - maybe he didn’t ... and again, life goes on ...



my point is that EITHER WAY there might have been MANY valuable lessons to be learned from that one experience ... but ... if no one was “involved” in watching - and reinforcing - and correcting - all of those individual steps along the way, how much actual LEARNING did the technician accomplish? ...



it’s sort of like the old debate on the “tree falling in the woods with no one there to hear it” ... if a student covers a new idea (either good or bad) and there’s no one there to reinforce it - or to correct it - has the student really “learned” anything? ... maybe yes - maybe no ... but personally I’d say that some constructive “involvement” can quite often pay off with big dividends ...



it’s hard to explain in just a few words - but I’m basically trying to draw a distinction between (1) “teaching” the student - and (2) helping the student “learn” ... in my opinion, most “teachers” spend far too much time “talking” - and not nearly enough time “asking and listening” ... even constantly encouraging a student to “ask questions” is often a losing proposition ... in many (most?) cases the student never considers that what he “already knows” is correct might actually be WRONG ... therefore, he sees no need to ask a question - and misses a valuable lesson ... in my opinion, it’s the INSTRUCTOR - not the student - who should constantly be asking the questions ... but then that’s just my personal opinion - I’m sure that others have their own ...



what I’ve found is that the students who have the hardest time learning NEW skills invariably have previous MISCONCEPTIONS about the subject stuck in their heads - and that these simple mistakes are keeping them from understanding the new material ... once that “junk” knowledge has been removed, you can almost SEE the lights come on upstairs ... I’m constantly amazed at instructors who keep repeating the same material over and over - trusting that somewhere along the line it will eventually “sink in” ... usually all it takes is asking the student a few simple questions to find out WHY he can’t seem to grasp the subject ... then quite often a slightly different explanation - or a quick demonstration - will remove the mental hurdles and succeed where mere repetition simply will NOT work ...



I know I have to learn to do this so they will learn, but
it sometimes leads to a lot more downtime.



congratulations! ... there aren’t a lot of managers out there who realize how much “on-the-job” training actually COSTS in dollars and cents ... for many plants there’s a constant battle between the “bean counters” who can easily track the cost of “training” vs. the “maintenance managers” who understand just what “in-house” training is actually costing the company in lost production, wasted raw materials, and in missed deadlines ...



in my mind, the word “troubleshooting” refers to a logical step-by-step process of systematically searching for a problem ... as an illustration, consider the material posted above by my distinguished colleagues brucechase and kamenges ...



Keith brought up the “direct consequential relationships” between some of the different items that Bruce had posted - and then he specifically mentioned a “solid consequential progression” from one item to another ... this is EXACTLY what I have in mind whenever I’m helping students learn “problem solving” and “troubleshooting” skills ... many of them get extremely frustrated with me when I refuse to let them hunt-and-peck their way through a lab assignment ... eventually I convince them (well, at least MOST of them) that “FINDING the problem” is not nearly as important as learning a “LOGICAL and SYSTEMATIC APPROACH to finding the problem” ... lucky guesses are great - when they work ... but when they fail, SOMEONE needs to know how to track the problem down ...



some technicians are GOOD at this type of thing ... others need help ... teaching people to “DO” is one thing ... teaching them to “THINK” (as you’ve apparently discovered) is quite another ...



The good thing is, these guys want to get better. I just don't want to let them down.



I’d say that you’re fortunate to have a crew with a desire to improve - and that they’re fortunate to have someone who wants to help them along the way ... that combination isn’t nearly as common as it should be - and I’m always encouraged whenever I find it ...



hope this helps ...
 
Thanks for taking time . All the responses were good. Your right Ron I need to be more of a teacher , and most of all a listener, just ask my
wife.
 
I figured I would add my .02 When I was much younger my father worked for a company that sold and repaired cash registers and computers. Kind of how I got into the trade. But anyway one thing he taught me early on, and I wish I could get it thru to todays youth is the who, what, when, where, how and why approach. And this has a large degree of communication with it.

Who - Who was running the machine.

What - What was happening? ex: abnormal noises, what process, what buttons, etc..

How - How long has the problem been happening? Has it been ongoing and progressively getting worse?

Where - Where was it in the process? Does it routinely happen there?

When - When it happens, frequency, certain operators, etc..

And the Why, well that goes with the trouble shooting. And it leads to the next thing my dad taught me and that was the KISS principle. Keep it simple. Chances are it is not the most complex part of the machine. Check your plugs and fuses. Well I am sure most of you know these thing but just thought I would add them.

Coachman said:
Thanks for taking time . All the responses were good. Your right Ron I need to be more of a teacher , and most of all a listener, just ask my
wife.
 
Ok having been the troubleshooter for many years I agree with all the above . Just wanted to put in my 2cents, as was stated above it is not always a complicated issue. I would talk to the operator of the machine and then decide what is the stupidest thing that could possibly be wrong. THAT would be my starting point and about 7 out of 10 times was the only step.
With expereince comes knowledge and with knowledge comes experience.
 

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