L5K Driver, Crimson 3.

There's a new Crimson 3 build (530.000).
One of the additions is: "Added Enhancements to L5K Driver Performance".
Could any of the Red Lion folks tell us a little more about it?
I had a project with 80+ machines (mostly start-stop) controlled by 2 CompactLogix PLCs and 2 G310 HMIs, all in the same network, and the performance was not very good. The start-stop buttons were reluctant to react every other time.

Elcan the main benefit of the new driver is speed. This new driver resolves the speed related issues associated with the previous L5K driver.

Thanks
Jeremy

JeremyH said:

Elcan the main benefit of the new driver is speed. This new driver resolves the speed related issues associated with the previous L5K driver.

Thanks
Jeremy

Click to expand...

Thank you for the clarification. If I have the chance to evaluate the new driver in the system I was talking about, I will let you know my results.

Elcan said:

Thank you for the clarification. If I have the chance to evaluate the new driver in the system I was talking about, I will let you know my results.

Click to expand...

OK, I was able to download the Crimson 3 upgrade with the new L5K driver. The results? NOT NOTICEABLE IMPROVEMENTS REGARDING SPEED.
Note:
In this Crimson 3 project I have the 2 PLCs under the same Protocol branch under "Network" (Communications categoy). I think somebody told me sometime ago that it would be better to have the PLCs hanging from different protocol branches (like PLC #1 under "Protocol 1", PLC #2 under "Protocol 2", etc.). I was not able to do it, because Crimson 3 used to crash when I moved the PLC #2 to is own branch (actually it would crash when trying to access its tags).

Elcan,

The driver has been tested by us and many of our customers to solve any speed issues related to the previous driver. Can you send me your file and a description of what you are doing when the problem occurs?

Thanks
Jeremy

JeremyH said:

Elcan,

The driver has been tested by us and many of our customers to solve any speed issues related to the previous driver.
Thanks
Jeremy

Click to expand...

I just noticed I'm using verion 1.04 of the L5K driver. I don't know if I should have been using version 2.00. I don't know if this version 2.00 is the mentioned as the new L5K driver. If so, why keeping version 1.04?
This confusion could explain the not noticeable speed improvement.

Please clarify, thank you!

Elcan,

V1.04 is the older version of the driver. For the improved speed you must use V2.0 of the driver. We have to keep the V1.04 to support existing applications.

Thanks
Jeremy

JeremyH said:

Elcan,

V1.04 is the older version of the driver. For the improved speed you must use V2.0 of the driver. We have to keep the V1.04 to support existing applications.

Thanks
Jeremy

Click to expand...

Thank you for the confirmation, Jeremy.
This detail was not mentioned in the revision notes. I had though I didn't have to change anything (just the existing driver was improved). I accidentally discovered there was a newer version of the driver.
After my finding and while I was waiting for your response, I found the G3-ABL5Kv2.pdf document. I'm reading it and I have a few comments:

1. It's sad that we need to remap the tags, one by one. We can have hundreds of them in any project.
2. Even with a project from scratch, we have to add the tags one by one. I wish we could add all the tags as a bulk.
3. Once we have all the tags added, we end up with a LONG list of tags. Were is my tree of tags? That was very convenient! Looking for a tag in a long list can be a nightmare.
4. The L5K file is not saved. If it was done for the old driver, why it is not for the new one?

Are there any chances you can make the version 2.00 of the driver be as user friendly as the 1.04?
One of the features I like the most is the tag tree...

Elcan,

There are some areas where the driver does require some more user effort. We hope to address some of these issues in the future but I can't say when it will be. We need to work though our current project load first.

Thanks
Jeremy

JeremyH said:

Elcan,

There are some areas where the driver does require some more user effort.
Jeremy

Click to expand...

In this case it can be a lot of work. For example, the project I mentioned before in this thread has more than 1,000 tags. Imagine adding 1000 tags and then re-maping them!
I always smiled when I saw other HMI brands dealing with a single long list of tags, and used to feel fortunate to have my old good tree of tags with Crimson 3.
I hope your team has the time to improve this driver user interface very soon!

I don't know how complex it's the code behind Crimson 3, but I cannot help thinking why the user interface for the new L5K driver is not very user friendly. I mean, one thing is what the driver does internally with the selected tags, and another thing is how we tell Crimson which tags to use. And another thing is how Crimson shows the selected tags (my tree of tags! ).
If the idea is to limit the connections to a selected set of PLC addresses, we can export only the used PLC addresses to the L5K file from inside RSLogix. Then Crimson could add all of them. This could be an option in addition to adding every single tag manually.
For backward compatibility, why changing the way the PLC address is referenced?:
Version 1.04: [PLC.Machines.Motor_1.Running]
Version 2.00: Program:Machines.Motor_1.Running
For me this is something that could be managed behind the scenes without affecting the nomenclature.

I'm just trying to understand why a new driver user interface has to be worse than the older one.

I don't know if anybody else have the same feeling about the new L5K driver...

Thank you!

Elcan said:

For backward compatibility, why changing the way the PLC address is referenced?:
Version 1.04: [PLC.Machines.Motor_1.Running]
Version 2.00: Program:Machines.Motor_1.Running

Click to expand...

Correction (I was not able to edit), extra square brackets:
Version 1.04: PLC.Machines.Motor_1.Running
Version 2.00: Program:Machines.Motor_1.Running

Elcan,
I am with you on this. I have never used the previous version of the driver but I found it very strange that I could only add the tags one at a time. I though I could use Ctrl or Shift and add them in mass at least.

I have been unable to get the Alias tags to read properly. I did a post on this:
http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=79469

As of now the issue hasn't been resolved. I just moved on and mapped the Physical I/O to internal tags. That is the only way I could get the system to work.

I love the Red Lion product but the LS5K driver needs a lot of work to be on par with everything else they make. What I don't understand is the lack of urgency to fix this. Would seem to me if you have a product that is not meeting your customers or your own standards that should be #1 on the list. I see this all the time with Manufactures. They are in such a hurry to release the new stuff they "forget" to make the old stuff work properly.

If anyone from Red Lion is monitoring this thread I also urge you guys to fix this. You have a great product in the G3 line. Please don't kill your product by falling into the trap of "Its not perfect, but it works" mind set. This business is full of those types of manufactures. Rise above them!!

Bullzi,
The previous version of the driver is still available (you have to select Version 1.04). The user interface is very user friendly. This driver works OK until your system is big enough. In my case, the project where you can see the speed problem has 2 CompactLogix PLCs, 2 G310, and we are controlling around 80 motors. If I have to change the driver from 1.04 to 2.00, in addition to the 3-4 hours that I would have to spend to remap the 1000+ tags, the are chances I assign an incorrect PLC address: imagine remaping 1000 tags from a looong list of tags.
So let's think about it. I would need the new driver for big projects, and big projects have a lot of tags, tags that I need to add one by one.

I'm a big fan of Red Lion. I love Crimson 3. However, sometimes I perceive that lack of urgency that you mention. I have reported a few bugs and sometimes they put them on the back burner.
The most important thing I don't like about Crimson 3 is the symbol and primitives libraries. There is not alternative for the Legacy Primitives, for example. Take a look at those gauges. It makes look the screens outdated. Red Lion says they have no plans to change it. In a few years, it will be unpresentable to use those old fashioned symbols. I already received complaints about "my" old style graphics, and the reason is people at the plants are becoming familiar with SCADA systems and computer graphics. I know it's just eye candy, because the software behind it is superb, but the customers don't necessarily know it. They get their impression from what they can see.

There are HMIs with better graphics out there, but their software is not as good as Crimson 3. Yet.

Elcan,
I am thinking of switching my project to the v1.04 L5K driver. You talked about mapping the tags. Is there a way to remap the tags in bulk with the 1.04 driver? Or do I have to do them one by one like normal? My project is not very big about 100 tags. If there is a faster way I would love to hear about it.
Thanks!!