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Old October 12th, 2017, 03:01 AM   #76
rootboy
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Why would you accept to get into a job with unpaid overtime?
If the money is right, then I'll listen. But even then I have my limits...

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Maybe it's my experience, but I just turn down offers if I even get a whiff of pressure to, essentially, work for free.
Anymore, that's what I do as well. I'll turn 60 this Friday, and I really don't feel the need to kill myself anymore.

But here in the States, you work at the pleasure of your employer. That means free OT if you will put up with it. I won't.

Where companies have really screwed up, and apparently haven't figured it out yet, is that now that there are no pensions to speak of (with the exception of Federal government and Military jobs), there is no reason to put 30 years in one place. Why would you?

They have effectively turned engineering into high-skilled construction jobs. And as any construction worker will tell you, "I was looking for a job when I found this one..."
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Old October 12th, 2017, 09:35 AM   #77
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2) me me me attitude is getting worse, a lot (not all) younger people think they should have everything just given to them and not have to pay or work, some think the schools should be free... well then who is going to pay the teachers, if we want the best we need to pay them and give them an incentive to teach the best
Earlier this year I worked for a robotics installer that had several "Millennials" working for them.

Out of the nine, six were top-notch and can find work anywhere. One of the Maintenance Electricians at my other place, 22 years old, has no worries about finding work, he's more than good enough. I really couldn't say that about his seniors...

And our intern here at the plant is a full-time engineering student and probably one of the quickest studies that I have ever met.

So you might be painting the youngsters with a bit of a broad brush...

As for schools, heck yes, they should be free, or at least affordable! Look at it this way, who would you rather have pay taxes into your Social Security fund, a $12/hr laborer, or a $120k/yr engineer? A person with a degree will end up paying 10x - 20x in taxes compared to someone without one. If there was ever a time to think of yourself, this is it!

And I didn't get my education for free, I was paid to learn it (albeit at a really low rate). And I'm pretty sure that I've paid that back over the years.

Why can't we take the long view and do the same?

And I know that all the rest of you that are in my age bracket had affordable education options yourselves. I paid $20 per credit hour when I went to the local community college. What's the going rate these days? What was your in-state tuition "Back in the day"? How many of you got your education through the *old* GI bill?

And that was a time when one paycheck was enough for a family to live on.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 12:16 PM   #78
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Yeah, times have changed. College is very expensive now. The rates have gone up much much faster than the rate of pay has. I went to MSU starting in 2005, their tuition is sitting at ~$430/credit hour today, for in-state tuition! Our public school system is falling behind as well. How many brilliant minds never find their way to higher learning because of those two facets alone?

I'm not optimistic that the US is going to be able to bounce back from this before we crash and burn. Just glad as an automation engineer, if necessary, I can get work somewhere else.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 12:24 PM   #79
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So you might be painting the youngsters with a bit of a broad brush...
Maybe, but I did say not all and when it comes to the people we are associated with (our colleagues) they are have higher standards than the rest of the population

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As for schools, heck yes, they should be free
Really... why? nothing is ever free, someone is going to pay for it regardless if its the taxpayers or the students it will never be free so why should taxpayers pay? its not their choice to go or not, its not going to be benefiting them it will only benefit the person going to school and if it was free we would try to pay the teachers even less than they make now, we should just give the kids books and then it can all be free.

Also if you go 'in-state' here in SC you can it a large discount, but it should not be free
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Old October 12th, 2017, 12:30 PM   #80
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College is very expensive now.
I think we need to look at where the money is going and we may find the issue

Our (USA) inflation has been low for many years and this is also one of the reasons our wages have been stagnant, but some things do continue to rise like school tuition and health care cost

Not sure there is a good fast answer but I do think it will work out in the end but it maybe a rough ride for some
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Old October 12th, 2017, 01:25 PM   #81
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As for schools, heck yes, they should be free, or at least affordable!
Free, no. Affordable, Yes.

Unfortunately in the world today, colleges get promotion from basically everyone, they really have no incentive to try and be affordable. I guess until the last few years, I never thought of "education" as a business, but its pretty obvious at this point I was wrong. I could draw a lot of similarities with the hospital system, but I wont.

Anyway If I have kids in the future, I honestly think I would encourage them to get a job, and prove their worth with the company. If they do then they can get the school paid for by a company, and that way they aren't toting the mountain of debt around. Yes there will more than likely be stipulations if they are paying, but I could deal with that for a few years instead of a quarter mil in debt.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 05:33 PM   #82
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When the government took over handling of student loans, that is when the colleges all straightened up and reduced the costs [/sarcasm]

https://www.prageru.com/courses/econ...e-so-expensive

Nothing is free, nobody owes you anything, you have not been shortchanged. AND there are still some really great, hard working young folks out there, just not as many in my opinion.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 09:09 PM   #83
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When one of my customers was starting up their new plant, the story I heard was that they were looking to hire 30 techs. They interviewed 300 people, and found 3 they could actually hire. So many of the rest lied about DUIs (they'd have probably been hired if they told the truth) or started crying when they found out they'd actually have to go online with a PLC, live, in person, in front of the interviewer....

To me there's three big pieces in play here: pay, training, and employee desire. I think y'all have covered the pay issues, and we've talked plenty about how hard it can be to find someone who actually wants to roll up their sleeves and get their hands dirty and some of the societal reasons (besides laziness) that people avoid the trades. The only thing I'll add there is that IT is pretty much the ***y new trade, and you can make good money doing it, without having to actually get dirty (unless you're the installer, who is lowest on the totem pole).

The piece we've mostly skipped is employer training. Some have mentioned how employers are afraid to give training, because then the worker will leave. But to me the magic word is "apprentice", and I think it only came up once. Actual organized apprentice programs got dropped years before I entered the industry. It's a "tragedy of the commons" situation, where everyone is just hoping that someone else will bear the cost of training their employees for them. Everyone is looking to hire that guy with 15 years of experience who is already an expert, or maybe willing to take on a "new guy" who's only been doing it for 5. Everyone is trying to run as lean as possible, and just make do with less than what they thought the minimum was last year. It's gotten to the point where the general expectation is that employees should train themselves on their own dime.

We need to get back to companies taking responsibility for their own success, and planning for their own future. If shareholders want to make money 5 years from now, they need to actually plan 5 years ahead. You want good guys? Make em yourself. Hire interns. Train apprentices. Get more than you need. Keep the ones that show promise, get rid of the rest. If you keep the pipeline full, you won't have to worry later.

We need to convince the next generation that manufacturing can be cool. Whether as an engineer, a tech, or an operator, we need workers who WANT to come to the factory. We need a "kids track" at industry trade shows. We need industry partnerships with schools. We shouldn't just focus on the kids who are already taking wood shop/metal shop, we need to reach the kids who are on the college track because of inertia; they don't know anything better to do. It won't help us next year, but it may help the industry in 5-10.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 02:24 AM   #84
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Anymore, that's what I do as well. I'll turn 60 this Friday, and I really don't feel the need to kill myself anymore.
Happy Birthday!!

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But here in the States, you work at the pleasure of your employer. That means free OT if you will put up with it. I won't.

Where companies have really screwed up, and apparently haven't figured it out yet, is that now that there are no pensions to speak of (with the exception of Federal government and Military jobs), there is no reason to put 30 years in one place. Why would you?

They have effectively turned engineering into high-skilled construction jobs. And as any construction worker will tell you, "I was looking for a job when I found this one..."
I must admit, I'm not in the States but it's basically a situation of supply and demand and will vary from location to location. What I find funny is that companies seem to have missed the point where they are the ones facing a lack of supply and do not readjust accordingly to try and get people in and keeping them happy.

What companies are missing is that people will put in a lot of effort if they are treated right. If you don't lie to people, invest in someone to up their skills, or are truly flexible in their hours or, in the case of system integrators, value and respect their time off, it is easy to keep an employee. But sadly this is not the case and likewise people will move on if given the chance.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 06:39 AM   #85
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This has been a good thread to follow.

I started working at the company I'm at now when I was 18, and I'll be 50 next year. Did take some time off to work elsewhere in the middle of that, but suffice it sto say I've been here a while.
The one thing I've noticed is how management has lost sight of the long term and wants to hire already trained and ready to go technicians that can hit the floor running. They don't exist. We always used to promote from within as a rule, so once you made it into Maintenance you had probably already accumulated at least 5-7 years of plant and company-specific experience, usually some of that being in production, running equipment. We had very few outside contractors and did almost all of it ourselves. In today's business environment, though, these days are gone.

To use an allegory to baseball, we don't have the farm team system any more, and are suffering for it.

From being at one time the youngest guy in the Maintenance department, how did I get to be a grumpy old man? :-\
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Old October 13th, 2017, 06:58 AM   #86
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It's not their fault, .....

Agreed!

Thank you for that, now I don't have to post it.
Children are beautiful, intelligent, curious, innovative and imaginative creatures, until (badly-skilled)parents and public schools *TEACH* all of those talents OUT OF them.

Last edited by kwade; October 13th, 2017 at 07:02 AM.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 07:36 AM   #87
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This has been a good thread to follow.

I started working at the company I'm at now when I was From being at one time the youngest guy in the Maintenance department, how did I get to be a grumpy old man? :-\
KB1GNI, I am in a similar boat.
I have worked at two companies that I have had ANY desire to stay.
I was at one location for ~14 years, the other (current) at ~7 years. That is about 21 years, and I am 50.
I have been employed at companies from as far down as a production tech with maintenance/plc duties to automotive OEM supplier 'engineering.'
(engineering in quotes because the work was engineering, the title was NOT)

I have been the youngest (and am now the oldest) tool in this toolbox.

We just completed a several-week interview process.
We netted one catch that appears to be the talent that we saw in the interview. The other has not yet started.
Yes, we 'wanted' a skilled 'hit-the-ground-running' warm body.
We were tempered by logic and reason.
We accepted a middle-ground - recent tech-school grads with AS (mecha/iet) and 'some' related experience.

As to your point of promoting internally: Fine if the talent/drive is there.
We brought a process-tech into our shop. He graduated from the same tech-school program. He is working out nicely.

I cannot begin to guess how long we can retain them.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 07:51 AM   #88
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The reason it is getting so hard to find qualified people to hire is the current education system from elementary on up to post secondary is screwed up. The wrong things are being taught in school to make our children productive as adults. There is too little teaching of reading, writing, and arithmetic; and too much cultural diversity, self esteem building, politically correct garbage being taught. The teachers are also relying on technology too much, kids are being taught how to use a calculator and PC before they learn to do the math and write on their own. When these kids get to college, they have to take remedial classes just to be where they should have been graduating high school.

Then there is college. First, not everyone should go to a traditional college, there are alternative ways to get the skills you need to make a good living. I joined the Navy out of high school, and the training and education I received set me up to have a productive career. The other problem with college is what they study. There are so many people going to college and getting a degree in Tahitian Minority Women Studies or something similar that are completely useless in the real world. When the universities are producing thousands of graduates in a field that employs less than a hundred people, then you tend to have a lot of highly educated burger flippers and Walmart cashiers (nothing wrong with those jobs as a starting point while getting an education and/or work experience).

Of course, I can sum up many peoples college experience:

:beerchu g::b eerchug:
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Old October 13th, 2017, 07:54 AM   #89
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I once heard someone say.....

"I never let my schooling get in the way of my education."
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Old October 13th, 2017, 08:04 AM   #90
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This is sooo true, it bugs the **** out of me..
My first job out of college, graduated with EET (Electrical Engineering Technology) they basically hired more engineers because the maintenance staff was not capable of troubleshooting.. So the 4 or 5 Reliability Engineers they had were on call salary maintenance people 90% of the time.. I got called in on a weekend once, to only find out once I got there they called because they were too busy to fix a vacuum issue in my area.....

Don't get me wrong the maintenance people we had were good at general maintenance stuff, but troubleshooting a cabinet where something isn't turning on was not anyone's strong suit.

I think it is just the way people are brought up, being told you don't want a job where you work with your hands, then none of the people that would be great at those positions take them.
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