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Old October 13th, 2017, 09:21 AM   #91
Steve Bailey
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A company can protect itself from having trained people leave for greener pastures by making the employees reimburse the company for the cost of training if they leave within some number of months after completing it. The number of months depends on the cost of the training.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 07:33 PM   #92
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A company can protect itself from having trained people leave for greener pastures by making the employees reimburse the company for the cost of training if they leave within some number of months after completing it. The number of months depends on the cost of the training.
I tried this with a company. They wanted 5 years for $2,000 dollars worth of training. No way. Soon after this, my role in the company switched to another department. Same role, just different boss. He told me I could have my choice of yearly training up to $3,000 dollars as long as I could show relevance to our company's systems in laymen's terms. He always said, "Train them well enough to leave, and treat them well enough to stay." Of course, I was on my last week there, so I went ahead and left.

After looking and seeing what all is out there for an automation tech, I decided to go after the EE. I think that with the lack of qualified technician's and the current business trend of mistreating them, going into business for myself or a good contracting company will be much better

That being said, it would be even better if I could find a gig in systems integration WHILE I'm in school because of the pay difference, I could work a week a month and be fine, then use the other 3 to catch up on classes. We can all have our fantasies. Until then, I'll just keep working as an electrician, with the occasional controls work as we run into it.

Last edited by sparkie; October 13th, 2017 at 07:35 PM.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 02:06 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Steve Bailey View Post
A company can protect itself from having trained people leave for greener pastures by making the employees reimburse the company for the cost of training if they leave within some number of months after completing it. The number of months depends on the cost of the training.
Richard Branson: "Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't want to"
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Old October 15th, 2017, 01:37 PM   #94
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How about we all start applying and going to job interviews for those welder/fabricator/program manager/controls tech/PLC programmer/toilet unclogger positions that want to pay $12 an hour with the sole intent of getting in front of HR to tell them that they can't get those skills for $12 an hour and walk out. Eventually, they may get the message.
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Old October 15th, 2017, 08:21 PM   #95
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I think it is everywhere. It is hard to even find a local school that teaches PLC here. Every time we post a job, we get plenty of applications from house wiring electricians, but very few of them know anything about a PLC, networking, or and type of HMI programing.
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Old October 15th, 2017, 09:39 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by shawn_75 View Post
How about we all start applying and going to job interviews for those welder/fabricator/program manager/controls tech/PLC programmer/toilet unclogger positions that want to pay $12 an hour with the sole intent of getting in front of HR to tell them that they can't get those skills for $12 an hour and walk out. Eventually, they may get the message.
You would be surprised at their reaction. If they are an exceptional HR manager, you may be walking out of their office with bag full of Snake Oil and questioning your own career.

For those asking for applicants like that, they will most likely tell you that they have been just fine without you or any other nerd. The new cars and trucks parked outside the offices says so. To a degree...

We have had people apply for a maintenance position at my job who ONLY want to program and tote a backpack around with a laptop. On top of that they want to start out topped out in pay and with full benefits. We have to tell them no because hiring someone like that does not bring any value what so ever to our company. I don’t care how much experience they have.
Fact of the matter, things need welded, fabricated, bolted, and unclogged more so than programmed. I would hire someone who couldn’t program but could operate the software and troubleshoot a machine. Then find that the bracket the sensor was mounted to has broke off and go get a welder and fix it. After that figure out why it broke off in the first place. The other guy would wait around until someone else was free to weld it on for him because he purposely wears khaki slacks and a white shirt so no one will confuse him for a wrench turner even though he is paid from the same budget. A review of his resume would indicate that he has bounced around to several integrators or OEMs and either couldn’t cut it or lost the business.

We should all remember that there is a different color pasture across the fence between working for an OEM and working for a plant.
So is there a lack of qualified people or a lack of “qualified” jobs? Are you looking for the wrench turner or the khaki slacks guy?
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Old October 16th, 2017, 12:35 AM   #97
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i am from bulgaria. i worked FIAT car factory (maintenence and automation specialist) for 10 years. Now i am working FST (freudenberg GMBH). if anybady need worker i am here.
i am specialist about siemens PLC and components.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 03:21 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bailey View Post
A company can protect itself from having trained people leave for greener pastures by making the employees reimburse the company for the cost of training if they leave within some number of months after completing it. The number of months depends on the cost of the training.
Usually companies that do this will not put in a realistic time frame to pay back the investment in the training.
Added on to that is the fact that it's also almost a get out of jail free card to freeze your salary for that same time period as you would have to pay to leave the company for greener pastures.

So honestly, I would turn down the training and start looking elsewhere to work if offered a deal like that. Remember that although the employee has an interest in improving skills and getting certs, the employer would also benefit from having someone with a bit more experience in a certain subject.

Perhaps if the employer outlined the pay rises during that period and also stating that under no circumstance will they fire you during that period would make it fairer... but no one would do that.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 10:40 AM   #99
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In the US, we send them to college or to war. Few in the pool of what's left have the intelligence or reliability to be a tech. Of the ones that go to war, the best become career because it's a great retirement plan and pretty good pay/benefits. Of the discharged, many feel entitled because of the unhealthy soldier-worship craziness we have in the US (it messes up soldiers more than PTSD). You basically end up sifting through vets trying to find one that's sane.

Set up a recruitment booth in front of the Army/Navy booth and try to snag them before they're ruined.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 10:41 AM   #100
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Of the discharged, many feel entitled because of the unhealthy soldier-worship craziness we have in the US (it messes up soldiers more than PTSD).
Very true.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 11:12 AM   #101
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It really has to do with Money and respect.
I went to a job interview they wanted programing and trouble-shooting experience with PLCs AB, Siemens, Red Lion and others, HMIs same brands as above. 480 to 600v motors and power distribution. Pumps, VFDs and 6 axes robots. The list went on, I have all that experience and some they offered me $13.00/hr and I had to pay half my health care. So I do field service for $25/hr and just do almost nothing but debug some routines and modify the HMIs.
You want experienced people you need to pay for them.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 12:08 PM   #102
harryting
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn_75 View Post
How about we all start applying and going to job interviews for those welder/fabricator/program manager/controls tech/PLC programmer/toilet unclogger positions that want to pay $12 an hour with the sole intent of getting in front of HR to tell them that they can't get those skills for $12 an hour and walk out. Eventually, they may get the message.
They probably won't. I read the help wanted ad sometime when I'm not even looking and you can tell a lot about a company just by the posting.

The top end example are the data-center tech for a certain huge internet search provider. Just by reading the ad you know that they know their stuff and they have the pay to match.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 02:37 PM   #103
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They probably won't. I read the help wanted ad sometime when I'm not even looking and you can tell a lot about a company just by the posting.

The top end example are the data-center tech for a certain huge internet search provider. Just by reading the ad you know that they know their stuff and they have the pay to match.
The data center positions are currently quite popular on the ex-Navy Nuke job boards.
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Old October 17th, 2017, 05:03 AM   #104
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I don't know that there is any solution at all, (speaking for the USA only), because of our idiotic entitlement/advancement/avoidance of responsibility system.

We send our kids to schools that praise and advance them, whether or not they do the work. Or even understand how to do the work.

Then we pay colleges and universities to take them , usually with remedial courses for the first year or so, who run praise and advance them, as long as the tuition money comes in. If you can't afford the tuition, you can borrow from the government and put yourself in debt for 20 years before you even get a job.

Oh, the colleges also don't recruit based on actual talent or capabilities, they recruit for diversity.

Then, we toss them out into the job market knowing virtually nothing, except that for 22 years, they have been perfect, could do no wrong, and never actually faced a problem except what fashions to wear to the next party.

The real world is is quite a shock.

-------------------------

I personally would go back to real elementary education. Mathematics, reading, critical thinking, writing... and then, for secondary education, or actually, even the high school level, offer alternative directions like there used to be... Technical high schools for actual trades. I don't think any exist any longer, but I might be wrong.

Most of these privileged pampered kids have never actually gotten a single blister from actual work. Most of the poor kids from inner cities end up running in gangs, and know weapons better than wrenches.

There is still the fantasy of 'growing up to be a rich doctor' or 'lawyer', unfortunately, in reality, we have a glut of doctors and lawyers. To the point that there are no jobs for them. Believe me, they don't like it to see their parents HVAC tech living in a nicer house, and driving a newer car then they can.

Trump (no comment) wants to "Bring Back Manufacturing". That is impossible without:
Electricians
Mechanics
Welders
Machinists
Boiler Operators
PLC / HMI Programmers
and....
People with enough of a work ethic, and skill level, to actually operate the machines.

/sigh.
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Old October 17th, 2017, 09:07 AM   #105
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rdrast
Much of what you say is true but it goes beyond that.
I sat in a local GM plant and listened to two mechanical engineers try to size a gearbox for a conveyor. They called in a sales guy who was just that. He called the factory and they sized it over the phone. This was nothing special, just a 5hp conveyor.
I wanted to shout over the wall "HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF A BROWNING CATALOGUE?"
The engineers didn't know and the sales rep didn't either.
Is that scary or what?
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