Access to Rockwell Knowledgebase

[ERitzman]

LOL - poor Josh... got himself a can of worms. Easy fellas, I think we can all agree KB hasn't been so kind to all of us, but hopefully we can convince this guy to stick it out a bit with us and maybe get some of that insight he has. I for one could use an experienced AB guy helping me, even if it isn't through the direct channel of AB as they would prefer (thus making my 24X7 support purchase a pricey contribution to the RA retirement fund - something I will likely never enjoy after they are done gouging me with insane costs [pokes another finger at Josh's rib]). If we can convince him to stick around, perhaps he'll truely see why so many of us have jumped so quick on this band-wagon of complaint and he'll help us convince that wig in the plush leather chair at Rockwell that he may have to nod in the direction of approving a customer service revamp in favor of the customer. I mean after all, Martin Luther King had a dream once... I figure I can too - as can we all.

That being said... Josh, has anyone in your organization ever had a Microsoft, Apple, or any other company issue with a product they provide? Even Microsoft and Adobe; both of which are money hungry giants, offer free support through their knowledge base. It's when you call them that they gouge you. Just something to think about. I know you can't change the world overnight - nor does anyone here think you can. But we applaud your efforts in advance to hint to the powers that be, that RA should rethink their thoughts on customer service. I think we all will say we look forward to your inputs here... especially if you're able to shed some light to some of the people here that are just unable to afford the support packages RA offers.

 

[Mickey]

Actually, I would argue that what he is looking for is JUST the type of value add that Rockwell can provide. He's not doing a simple connection from one processor to another. He's routing communications from one processor THRU another one to a third. This sort of thing can really trip people up (I know from experience ... I've sat with lots of folks helping them set this type of scenario up).

While I can definitely see the argument folks have put forward about the forums, I just don't see this one as a valid data point in the free category, unless you are of the opinion that all support should be free (rolled into the cost of the equipment). And, frankly, I'll never sell that argument. It just costs too much money to provide support these days.

Maybe I'm missing why this one should be free is a dual fee vs free environment. If I am, please enlighten me.

Joshua Hutchinson
Rockwell Automation Knowledge Base Support

EDIT - The link he was given, by the way, works whether you have a support contract or not. It was just a link to search results for the keywords "Message thru passthru". Some of the answers are contract only, of course, but the search results are open to everyone.

I don't view the KB as support. I think the articles there are just things that should have been in the manuals in the first place.

Nobody writes perfect manuals, the KB is just a collection of articles that improve (add to) the manuals. It should be free.

Are you now going to charge for the manuals?

 

[JHutch2000]

Okay, Joshua, how about this one:

http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=41586

All he wanted to do was programmatically change the clock value. Why is that a protected tech note?

Paul

Well, I'm betting the original reasoning was that it is a "training" document. It teaches you how to do something very specific. In this case, change the Real Time Clock from ladder logic.

This is one of those "border line" scenarios. I can see the argument either way (especially when I try to stay objective and not jump on either fee or free's bandwagon).

However, in this case, I'll make a peace offering. Since it is borderline (and I have the power to affect individual answers at a policy level), I'll move this one over to Everyone status. I know it's not a solution to the larger problem.

Joshua Hutchinson
Rockwell Automation Knowledge Base Support

 

[JHutch2000]

I don't view the KB as support. I think the articles there are just things that should have been in the manuals in the first place.

Nobody writes perfect manuals, the KB is just a collection of articles that improve (add to) the manuals. It should be free.

I think that you and I will have to agree to disagree on this point. The KB IS used to provide information that was missing from the manual (and that stuff is/should be free). But it is ALSO there to provide information beyond a manual. For instance, a manual can tell you what all the ladder logic instructions do ... but it isn't going to tell you how to program your production line to make Widget Wonder 1000. If you want help in performing specific tasks with the instructions outlined in the manual ... that's value add. Whether the information is in a Knowledge Base document we wrote or whether you got it on the phone from one of our engineers, it's value-added information.

Here is another example: I can hand you the spec manual for C++. But you certainly wouldn't expect me to hand you the source code for RSLinx Enterprise. It's just a series of C++ commands, so it's just an extension of the spec manual for C++, right? (Granted this example is taken to the point of extreme silliness, but just to illustrate my point. Please take no offense.)

Our fee vs free doctrine tries to walk a fine line between providing our customers with basic usage information they need and providing the value added information they need. Sometimes we fall off the line one way or another. I'm trying to help make the line consistent, at least.

Joshua Hutchinson
Rockwell Automation Knowledge Base Support

 

[bkottaras]

I don't view the KB as support. I think the articles there are just things that should have been in the manuals in the first place.

Nobody writes perfect manuals, the KB is just a collection of articles that improve (add to) the manuals. It should be free.

Are you now going to charge for the manuals?

Mickey,
just remember that you are a controls guy.
Are you looking into changing fields and jumping into marketing??
Are you now going to charge for the manuals?
Don't throw out ideas now to them guys!!

 

[bkottaras]

I think that you and I will have to agree to disagree on this point. The KB IS used to provide information that was missing from the manual (and that stuff is/should be free). But it is ALSO there to provide information beyond a manual. For instance, a manual can tell you what all the ladder logic instructions do ... but it isn't going to tell you how to program your production line to make Widget Wonder 1000. If you want help in performing specific tasks with the instructions outlined in the manual ... that's value add. Whether the information is in a Knowledge Base document we wrote or whether you got it on the phone from one of our engineers, it's value-added information. And if I called it in and pointed your engineer to a specific application shortcoming or a bug and you worked on correcting it in a future release os patch or a KB document to work around it, do I get a Value Added Bonus Check in the mail? Sounds Fair!!

Here is another example: I can hand you the spec manual for C++. But you certainly wouldn't expect me to hand you the source code for RSLinx Enterprise. It's just a series of C++ commands, so it's just an extension of the spec manual for C++, right? (Granted this example is taken to the point of extreme silliness, but just to illustrate my point. Please take no offense.)

Our fee vs free doctrine tries to walk a fine line between providing our customers with basic usage information they need and providing the value added information they need. Sometimes we fall off the line one way or another. I'm trying to help make the line consistent, at least.

Joshua Hutchinson
Rockwell Automation Knowledge Base Support

Just a thought that can generate extra icncome for some of us guys.
Nothing personal Josh, just frustration!

 

[S7Guy]

Wow, what an interesting thread. Obviously (from my user name) I am an S7 user, and am even a big Siemens critic (I wouldn't spec out a WinCC system if you held a gun to my head), but one thing I can say is that their own Knowledge Base is chock full of software downloads and every user manual you can think of, and it's free. I don't even have to log in, and I can even browse the technical support forum for free. I use it all the time, and I can't even imagine not having it available. What the heck is Rockwell thinking?? Charging for or resticting access to a KB that would probably reduce their tech support calls drastically has to be one of the dumbest business decisions I ever heard of.

In fact, the first thing I do when evaluating a new product is call tech support and see what I can expect. For instance, I am using Inductive Automation for a couple of projects, and their online and phone support is beyond what anyone could expect (and they don't charge a dime for it). If I was AB, Siemens, GE, etc, I would be worried about smaller start-up outfits like this who are hungry and ambitious. Yeah, they don't have a local office, but I don't care about that anyway. In this day and age, I prefer online support every time.

 

[504bloke]

I think that you and I will have to agree to disagree on this point. The KB IS used to provide information that was missing from the manual (and that stuff is/should be free). But it is ALSO there to provide information beyond a manual. For instance, a manual can tell you what all the ladder logic instructions do ... but it isn't going to tell you how to program your production line to make Widget Wonder 1000. If you want help in performing specific tasks with the instructions outlined in the manual ... that's value add. Whether the information is in a Knowledge Base document we wrote or whether you got it on the phone from one of our engineers, it's value-added information.

Here is another example: I can hand you the spec manual for C++. But you certainly wouldn't expect me to hand you the source code for RSLinx Enterprise. It's just a series of C++ commands, so it's just an extension of the spec manual for C++, right? (Granted this example is taken to the point of extreme silliness, but just to illustrate my point. Please take no offense.)

Our fee vs free doctrine tries to walk a fine line between providing our customers with basic usage information they need and providing the value added information they need. Sometimes we fall off the line one way or another. I'm trying to help make the line consistent, at least.

Joshua Hutchinson
Rockwell Automation Knowledge Base Support

No matter how you wrap it, it still sucks.

I didnt particularly like siemens plcs or Step7 but i now get a better deal on them and there support is free at present. So for me RA have lost a few bucks, this might seem small (neligable) but lots of small fry make for lots of bucks!

I do hope you stay here and dont dissapear when your manager/s find you here

Notice this post is staying at the top and has received quite a lot of views....

Hot Subject

Right on my soap box again.....

I spend over $30000 on PV+CE's and have a problem, UK Support take 2 weeks to get back with wrong answers, i speak to them and feel as if i am speaking to a trainee and know a hell of a lot more than them. I look at the KB and Forums, hell i need Tech Connect to access the info i need on Datalogging onto a win2k server on a windows domain? In the manual, not anything thats useful...

For something thats so simple

Similar scenario.....

I have a Rebadged Redlion G3 (SSD TSi) talking over firewire to SSD 890 drives, i have a problem with the Screen rebooting, i email redlion, send them my app, presto i have a fix in a return email, completely free.

Now the problem was not mine but a firmware/software problem, but the case being i had a fix within hours. I would expect that to have taken weeks if not months from here in the Uk with RA.

When logix 500 first came out i had one of the first copies (legit!) It kept crashing with online rung edits, spoke with support (when it was free) to be told this is a known issue and will be fixed, some 6 months later it was........

Like i said you have lost me (which is a shame cos i love logix, the 500 and 5000 series) and i suspect many more....

 

[JHutch2000]

Yep, paying money sucks. I'm not being sarcastic. It does.

But until the future Star Trek promised me many years ago comes around (and we as a society do away with money), my job will entail giving you as much as I can within the confines of not losing our collective shirts while we do so.

So, for the foreseeable future, there will be support contracts at Rockwell Automation.

And though I keep coming back to this, I think that the service we provide is worth the money. We provide a very, very high level of expertise in our support. While many can come up with the bad experience to argue against that statement, I truly believe that they are the rarity, NOT the norm.

If you do see a pattern of poor support, contact me. If you see information that is locked behind a support contract wall and you truly believe it should be free, contact me. Maybe you're right. Maybe you'll convince us that the line should be shifted a little.

I do want people to be happy with Rockwell products and Rockwell support. I think that in today's market, the complexity of the products that are offered makes support more important than it's ever been. I can only see that trend continuing. So work with me to make it as good as it can be for all involved.

NOTE: I'll be out of the office tomorrow (Friday), so I may not get a chance to respond to anything further until Monday. So, if you don't get a response, don't think I'm ignoring you or running away. The heat in here is nothing so far. Definitely not the level of flame needed to chase me away. And I think everyone that's spoken up so far has done so with the intent to improve, not belittle or insult.

Thank you for that.

Joshua Hutchinson
Rockwell Automation Knowledge Base Support

PS - 504bloke ... did you just call Microsoft Windows Domains ... easy?! Maybe I can agree that MS should have MADE domains easy ... *shudder* Go talk to the open-source SAMBA folks if you want horror stories on how *little* idiosyncrasies can cause *large* problems when it comes to Windows file sharing!

 

[504bloke]

Yep, paying money sucks. I'm not being sarcastic. It does.

But until the future Star Trek promised me many years ago comes around (and we as a society do away with money), my job will entail giving you as much as I can within the confines of not losing our collective shirts while we do so.

So, for the foreseeable future, there will be support contracts at Rockwell Automation.

And though I keep coming back to this, I think that the service we provide is worth the money. We provide a very, very high level of expertise in our support. While many can come up with the bad experience to argue against that statement, I truly believe that they are the rarity, NOT the norm.

If you do see a pattern of poor support, contact me. If you see information that is locked behind a support contract wall and you truly believe it should be free, contact me. Maybe you're right. Maybe you'll convince us that the line should be shifted a little.

I do want people to be happy with Rockwell products and Rockwell support. I think that in today's market, the complexity of the products that are offered makes support more important than it's ever been. I can only see that trend continuing. So work with me to make it as good as it can be for all involved.

NOTE: I'll be out of the office tomorrow (Friday), so I may not get a chance to respond to anything further until Monday. So, if you don't get a response, don't think I'm ignoring you or running away. The heat in here is nothing so far. Definitely not the level of flame needed to chase me away. And I think everyone that's spoken up so far has done so with the intent to improve, not belittle or insult.

Thank you for that.

Joshua Hutchinson
Rockwell Automation Knowledge Base Support

PS - 504bloke ... did you just call Microsoft Windows Domains ... easy?! Maybe I can agree that MS should have MADE domains easy ... *shudder* Go talk to the open-source SAMBA folks if you want horror stories on how *little* idiosyncrasies can cause *large* problems when it comes to Windows file sharing!

Glad you wont be running away

You will never convince me that pay for support is better. Here in the uk (which may be different to your side of the pond) the support when RA changed over to TechConnect went seriously downhill.

Fact - Siemens Support and forums and KB are free (See S7Guys Post)

Fact - I have 4 or more siemens mobile numbers for actual experts (they trouble shoot, program and train) that i can phone if i am stuck. I have none of this from RA in the UK, even if i had a tech connect i doubt i would have this.

Fact - Just search here and at MrPlc.com and see the grief ACCESS DENIED on the RA KB has caused rockwells customers who dont have a TechConnect.

Also how do i know if a KB article should be free when i search for it as i cant see it ?

I dont think you will ever convince the majority that a KB article should be in the paid for instead of free. Like i said above if i have just spent $30000+ with you on brand new PV+CE's why should i need to go bang my head against a wall to get answers???

This will do RA no favours now or in the future....

With regards Windows Domains, that is a whole different subject, i should have said that the prblems i had with PVCE+ logging over ethernet on windows domains was easy once i got to the bottom of it....

Dont get me started on MS products ....

When will you be bringing out Logix for Linux ???

 

[jtn]

And though I keep coming back to this, I think that the service we provide is worth the money. We provide a very, very high level of expertise in our support. While many can come up with the bad experience to argue against that statement, I truly believe that they are the rarity, NOT the norm.

I get a level of good support from Rockwell, but it seems that I need to wade through the lower levels of tech support before I get it. I usually have people reading the tech support documents to me that I have already read, and then they say "let me see if I can get you in touch with so and so". I hardly ever call tech support, but when I do I've reserached the KB and tried really hard to solve the problem on my own, read and reread the manual, etc. I wish there was a rating when they pull up my name when I forst make the connection, so they could say "This guy usually calls with some issue that's not in the KB, let's bump him up past the reading of Tech Notes to him". I get the distinct feeling they are searching the same KB I have access to because they say word for word what I have just read.

On the other hand, sometimes I have a project and I have to use a Rockwell product that I normally don't use and the KB didn't help me because I didn't know enough about the product to understand what the KB was telling me. In cases like that I do ask a bone headed question sometimes. Maybe you could rate users by product?

 

[Tharon]

Fact - I have 4 or more siemens mobile numbers for actual experts (they trouble shoot, program and train) that i can phone if i am stuck. I have none of this from RA in the UK, even if i had a tech connect i doubt i would have this.

I usually get my expert contact numbers through my distributor and OEM, rather than through tech support.

 

[dougrb]

How come tech connect doesn't even give full access

OK... I've got to throw this one out. My company always has and always will pay for Tech Connect support. There have been times when tech support comes up with a KB article that I didn't find in my searching and they will say "Yea... you don't have access to THAT". They will then promptly email it to me.

What's up with that???

 

[jtn]

OK... I've got to throw this one out. My company always has and always will pay for Tech Connect support. There have been times when tech support comes up with a KB article that I didn't find in my searching and they will say "Yea... you don't have access to THAT". They will then promptly email it to me.

What's up with that???

I've had that happen also.

 

[Mickey]

I think that you and I will have to agree to disagree on this point. The KB IS used to provide information that was missing from the manual (and that stuff is/should be free). But it is ALSO there to provide information beyond a manual. For instance, a manual can tell you what all the ladder logic instructions do ... but it isn't going to tell you how to program your production line to make Widget Wonder 1000. If you want help in performing specific tasks with the instructions outlined in the manual ... that's value add. Whether the information is in a Knowledge Base document we wrote or whether you got it on the phone from one of our engineers, it's value-added information.

Here is another example: I can hand you the spec manual for C++. But you certainly wouldn't expect me to hand you the source code for RSLinx Enterprise. It's just a series of C++ commands, so it's just an extension of the spec manual for C++, right? (Granted this example is taken to the point of extreme silliness, but just to illustrate my point. Please take no offense.)

Our fee vs free doctrine tries to walk a fine line between providing our customers with basic usage information they need and providing the value added information they need. Sometimes we fall off the line one way or another. I'm trying to help make the line consistent, at least.

Joshua Hutchinson
Rockwell Automation Knowledge Base Support

Data format for the 1762-IF4 analog input card is not something that should be in the manual? Its locked. There are many more like this.
Pin-Outs?
Yes, I do disagree.

http://rockwellautomation.custhelp...._new_search=1&p_search_type=answers.search_nl