Am I getting ripped off on my new PLC/HMI install?

[RussB]

If you need a screwdriver and there is only one screwdriver vendor around, is it then fair to ask 15000 USD for the screwdriver ? Even if the screwdriver would be worth 15000 USD because you have the need here and now, I dont think it is fair.

As in this example we do not have all the facts.
Fact: I can purchase a machine (Grinder) for <$1500 dollars and build my own screwpriver out of materials in my scrap bin in <8 hours.
Fact: Now I am my own screwdriver vendor, I may decide to compete with the other "only" screwdriver vendor and force their price down.
There are too many facts missing here to make a good decision.

 

[jprindle]

Can you provide more details? The price seems extremly high, but depending on what equipment you have and what data you want, it might not be.

I have run into a similiar situation. I wanted a vendor of ours to perform a retro fit on one of our machines, and the price was so high we could not do it. The reason for the high price was that they were busy, and did not want to do it. I confirmed this off the record with a couple of guys. I wound up doing it myself for less that 10% of their price. This could be a similiar situation.

 

[boanhed]

What were the specs ?

You didn't mention the PLC or HMI models. If RSView was used to program the HMI then historical trending could have been specified as part of the original programming. The parameters could have been set to save the data files periodically as csv to the network or flash card. What programming spec did you give your vendor ??!!
If RSView was not used you are probably looking at custom sripting sofware to do the conversion.

 

[gregjwilson]

sorry to be late in replying to questions here.
PLC: AB 1500 micrologix stuff
HMI: AB PanelView plus.
Specs: none.

As I mentioned, I just started with this company 5 months ago, with this project more recently.
The original contract alluded to " server support " for "production data"
I was ok with meeting with the vendor, they stated that I would be getting register info, addresses, etc. in the normal documentation they provide.
They then said we can give you some additional support with some software they've "developed"

I thought, cool, that'll get the stuff I need in a nice package I can use. How much can that cost?
As it stands now, I've been waiting for a callback from their project manager who was supposed to set up a conference call with their control guys and me. I'm still waiting.

I wonder if he's subscribed to this forum?

 

[allscott]

How many tags? What version of RSview?

Without knowing the above but with a ML 1500 I am suspecting you are being bent over.

 

[rdrast]

sorry to be late in replying to questions here.
PLC: AB 1500 micrologix stuff
HMI: AB PanelView plus.
Specs: none.

They then said we can give you some additional support with some software they've "developed"

Note the red flag issues...
1) A PV+ really doesn't have any internal method of event capturing, or configurable data-logging. It does do trending, and alarming, but that's about it. There is no real connectivity, and no VBA. It also isn't exactly conducive to running third party utilities, or acting as a data server to other applications. It also lacks any kind of SPC/SQC package that I know of. That means, that they will probably have to provide another I/O server, which will reside on another computer (not free), and application software, as well as configurations in order to record process data in another way.

2) No Spec... well, right or wrong, no spec is essentially a nearly open checkbook to most integrators.

3) "Custom Developed Software"... that one kind of scares me. It might be perfectly functional, and user configurable, then again, it might not be. It is more than possible to write some very good utilities in any language from VB, to C to C++, to .Net to even Java, it is also possible (and much easier) to throw together a kludge.

---

Costs, figure somewhere from $1000 to $2000 for an I/O server supporting OPC to begin with, then another $1000 to $5000 for a configurable data-engine such as RSSQL (Rockwell), OPC DataLink (Software Toolbox) or another vendor. Then too, there will probably be another few hundred for a NET-ENI module to get the PLC talking on ethernet to the PV+ and the PC doing the collection. Is that 15,000? Probably not, but I don't know how they are estimating the job either. Depending on their 'custom' software, and your requirements, (and their expertise in Data Collection) there may be a lot of time involved, and will almost certainly be a lot of back-and-forth to achieve your desired result. Is that worth the 15,000? I don't know your situation.

Depending on your level of knowledge, available time, and criticality of collecting specific data in specific ways (time based, footage/part count based, event based, etc), it might be a project that you can tackle yourself for much less actual cost, as well as gaining some extra abilities to incoroporate similar collection in-house into other systems.

 

[TimWilborne]

You need to spec exactly what you want. Many of these packages are based off of the tag count. The more information you want, the more it's going to cost.

For example RsView ranges from around $925 for 75 tags to $6120 for 100K. This is just the basic software, no extension, and no programing of the interface.

But there is a new alternative that many users are unaware of. I wouldn't say your vendor is trying to rip you off by not offering you this, they probably don't even know about it. The new Micrologix 1100 and the later model 1500s have a built in data logging feature that will output a CSV file with a piece of free software. Ask them to check into that.

Still, no matter what, you must specify exacty what you are wanting or they are going to have to quote it high to cover their rear

 

[gregjwilson]

The new Micrologix 1100 and the later model 1500s have a built in data logging feature that will output a CSV file with a piece of free software. Ask them to check into that.

!!! Excellent.
Thanks for that info, TWControls, that really gives me some ammo to talk to them with.

Thanks again, everyone, for your help here.

 

[TimWilborne]

I wouldn't call it ammo, I would approach it as "Have you heard of this new method of data logging?" Like I said, chances are they are unaware of this new feature

 

[gregjwilson]

No worries, TW.
Had the conference with their controls guys - armed with all the help I've gotten here I was able to talk intelligently with them about our needs and their software.
Without big changes, we're turning this option down.
Thanks again all.