Are You On The Clock?

[rdrast]

I am the employer.

I encourage new hires to come here. I think the exposure and knowlege they can get from browsing here (within reason of course) is more cost effective than some of the training I might pay for.

I couldn't agree more. I have found, both in this world, and in my previous life (working for a company that made a specific product that I was responsible for servicing, and had to attend 'intensive training' for), that any training, in-house, freebie, or paid-for was mostly a veiled sales pitch, but very little actual knowledge transfer.

In this particular industry (automation in general), I've attended both freebie and (expensive) paid for courses from several vendors, AB, Siemens, Klockner, Toshiba, SSD, Mitsubishi, SquareD, Tele, and some others.

None actually seemed to do much more than say how wonderful their product was, maybe with a few 'generic' examples of how to apply them. Oddly, one of the most informative week-long classes I attended was on RSView SE, and it had virtually nothing to do with SE, but rather configuration of Windows Active Directory.... go figure.

Besides, I have often gotten the solution to a problem here. It is only fair to give back for what I've taken.

As have I. I don't often come here with problems, but I glean a lot from simply reading posts, and learn a TON from how other people approach a problem. (well, except for my most recent one lol).

Some answers are simple, and some are never actually answered here, but the insights of having a professional team of incredible thinkers can often lead to a solution that isn't apparent to the person with the problem.

What is the cliche? The solution to any problem, is in defining it properly.

Going back a long time, in years, an old mentor of mine used to almost yell..."Did you check the power-supplies?". That simple reminder has saved my butt many a time, but was so simple, it was easy to ignore until I got the (not so gentle) reminder.

 

[Terry Woods]

Some people just never seem to hear what has been said... they only seem to hear what they want to hear... whether it was said, or not.

There is a decided difference between "reasonable use" and abuse. Some, apparently, don't see a difference.

I wonder if some employers would want their employees to spend as much time here as those employers do. I wonder if those employers could dig deep into their guts and answer that question honestly.

Some of you (that's a general "you") give the impression that you simply couldn't possibly do your job without having access to the Internet.

NO INTERNET??? OH, MY GOD!!! How in the hell can I possibly get anything done (personal or professional) without having access to the Internet???

I have to wonder... Gee... How in the hell could anything have ever gotten accomplished before the Internet!

Believe it or not... while I'm sure that some of you simply can't relate to such a concept... some of us actually grew up without the Internet! Wow! Imagine that! But then, some of you think... "Gee, no Internet? How in the hell could you have possibly have gotten anything done?"

Well... get this... we actually did accomplish things, many things... all of them before the Internet existed! DAMN! Imagine that!

Apparently, some people think they need the Internet so that they can be "smart" at their profession... and yet, as I recall, the Internet was invented by some very, very smart people... people that were never on the Internet... they didn't need the Internet to be "smart".

Now, before some of you come up with... "But, professionally speaking, things are much better now with the access to the Internet for all of the information that is available!"...

I return to... "There is a decided difference between "reasonable use" and abuse. Some, apparently, don't see a difference."

Full Circle? Does anybody get the point?

Try this... a kid can't add two numbers together unless he does so on a calculator. Can you see the parallel?

(994)

 

[harryting]

Some people just never seem to hear what has been said... they only seem to hear what they want to hear... whether it was said, or not.<snip>

......

 

[Eric Nelson]

(1014) (FUTW)...



-Eric

P.S. Yes, I realize I still owe you a reply to your email.

 

[monkeyhead]

"There is a decided difference between "reasonable use" and abuse. Some, apparently, don't see a difference."

I think this is pretty much the crux of things.

I use the internet every day at work. I look up distributors and vendors, research parts, find solutions to problems, download technical publications. All of this I do because it relates directly to the task at hand and is a very powerful tool to accomplish these types of job functions.

A perfect example is about a week back. I spent about three hours looking through every catalog we owned to find an encoder with a low PPS count and a 12" circumfrence measuring wheel. No such luck. I figured I'd just have to have all sorts of nasty conversion math in my program. Before I gave up I resorted to google to see if I could find anything. 20 Minutes later I was holding Part number specification documents downloaded from Photocraft with exactly the solution I was looking for.

This site is total grey area though. I enjoy looking at this site, and even though I'm learning, I could get lost for hours on this site if I actually had hours to spare. My employer doesn't pay for training or schooling, so I always kinda figured that wasting time here at work would be considered a no-no even if I tried it under the guise of 'it relates to my job.'

But then again, sometimes I wonder why I worry when I see the guys on the crew hanging out in the shop laughing at spyware infected 'joke' e-mails.

I do agree with Terry's 'kids can't add without a calculator' analogy, but at the same time, understanding what a powerful research tool the internet is, I find it a waste of time to sit on hold listening to a computer 'operator' ,thumbing through catalog after catalog trying to spec things out, or waiting days for tech documents to be snail mailed to me.

 

[monkeyhead]

Oh yeah... and another thing the internet kicks *** for:

Certain OEM's like to 're-brand' standard parts with their own internal part number. A norgren cylinder is suddenly a 'Company OEM' part and a Hitachi VFD is suddenly a 'Company OEM' brand VFD. This is all done in the attempt to lock customers in to purchasing all spares and replacements from the OEM only.

Take that number stamped on the end of the cylinder and google spits out a link to a Norgren distributor! Grab the firmware version off the side of the VFD... Google links to a Hitachi page! We've saved thousands and thousands of dollars since we stopped buying the OEM branded parts and started purchasing them directly from the manufacturer's distributors.

 

[Steve Bailey]

How in the world did we ever get along without the internet? Consider this. A few years ago, technical manuals were included in the box with the product. When you needed extra manuals, you could call your distributor and they'd send (or bring) you some. Today, the definition of a manual is a pdf file at the manufacturer's website. Your time to download it, your paper, your ink if you want a hard copy.

It's certainly progress in that it's easier to get your hands on the latest documentation, but the costs of printing and distribution of the technical documentation have been shifted from the manufacturer to the user.

 

[MarkTTU]

Ron...

I wish I could have you sitting next to me for a day... you would be bored out of your gourd! I spend all of my time staring at the screen, or going through books, or writing new code for on-line changes in pencil.

At my computer, I spend ZERO-TIME on the Internet at work!

I have insisted that I DO NOT want access to the Internet on my computer!

I don't even want my computer (or my PLCs) on the house-network... at least, not directly. Over my years, I've experienced too many cases where a failed "network" brought a process down... usually by some sort of spurious communication (similar to a keyboard dying... you've experienced that, haven't you? I most certainly have! It KILLED my system!).

If I need to gain information from the Internet, I go see my buddy in Maintenance-Purchasing. I get all of the on-line info I need at that point.

Regarding manuals... I have printed hard-copies for all I'm concerned with. If something new comes in, and the delivered info is not enough, I get what I can from the Internet while I'm at home... on MY TIME.

My beef is... there are obviously, CLEARLY OBVIOUSLY, some people that... get to work, log into PLCnet, and spend a lot of time here, at PLCnet, rather than doing what they are being paid to do!

If they are spending so much time at PLCnet they are obviously NOT spending the time looking at their code, or thinking about how to make their better!

I am NOT, in any way, saying that people shouldn't slend at least some time at PLCnet... what I'm making a point of is those folks that seem to "hang" on PLCnet for far too much of the working day.

I truely appreciate Phil and what he has done with PLCnet. However, I don't appreciate the obvious abuse by those that go to work just to "get-on-the-net".

I'd agree with you. There is definitely some (more than there should be) abuse of internet access for people at work.

The question an employer should ask (in my opinion) is two pronged: 1) Does the employee have a reasonable need for the net (ie will it make him/her more productive); if yes then they need net access and question two comes up: 2) If I can't trust my employee to be honest about their time usage during business hours (net or otherwise) then should they really be my employee?

I think that a corporate (not individual) solution of no internet is a very poor choice and really just reflects on the poor quality of the people doing the hiring and firing and the poor quality of the managers.

 

[rsdoran]

Some people just never seem to hear what has been said... they only seem to hear what they want to hear... whether it was said, or not.

There is a decided difference between "reasonable use" and abuse. Some, apparently, don't see a difference.

Terry, you and Peter are the main people that have pushed me to "think" per se, so where did you use the term reasonable use or abuse in your original reply?

Thanks back at you Casey!

So far, I see that I am one of only two that do not hang at PLCnet while they should be doing business.
We are not all the wizard of OZ! This is a networking resource for some people.

I am under great pressure to get "on the net" but I refuse to do so simply because I feel that I owe my allegiance to my primary endevour. PLCnet is too great a temptation... not that I hang here for answers. It has happened that I hanged for an answer, at least once, maybe twice... in all of five years!
That is your choice but whether you used it once or a 100 times, the fact is it was an available resource. I also know you have had several extensive conversations on subjects where you learned a few things.

I just can't believe how many guys I see that have been on-site, regularly, during working hours, when they should be doing for their bread & butter!
Ever thought their "working hours" may not coincide with yours?

A lot of us Irish-Catholic-Democrat kids have really internalized the fundamental concept of the Puritan work-ethic. (look it up)

There are some that haven't quite developed that particular ethic. However, when in a controlling position, they absolutely love having guys like us working for them... after all, we make the money!
Both of these paragraphs are meaningless, none of the terms used imply a greater work ethic than another person may have.

The way I see it, if a guy is hanging at PLCnet for the answers, during working-hours, he ain't reading his own damned manuals to figure out what's going on in his own PLC, so that he he really understand his own particular PLC!
We all know the answers are not always in the book nor is TECH SUPPORT always available.

"Short-Cutters" are NOT "Process Developers".

They ain't got the Moxie!

They are Losers! They'll NEVER be "players"... at best... maybe "band-aid"ers.
These are meaningless insults, it is why I stated maybe too many MGD's.

And I really choke on the... "I'm the Employer, so it doesn't matter" concept.

Don't you guys have management issues to tend to? How about doing more for your customer? Do you feel that your business is so perfect that you don't need to work on what your customer expects, as promised in your promo-material? You're all trying to "Sell the Moon! How about putting in the time to deliver on that promise?
IF a person owns a company his time is his time...ie will spend it as needed to be successful and stay that way. It is possible an hour on the net may provide information he was not aware was available that could "provide the Moon".

Yeah, yeah, yeah....

I would agree that many people have done many things "pre-Internet" but think about this, in the past many people are given credit for some "great" inventions. Thomas Edison developed the first light bulb to work on electricity but the facts show he did not actually "invent" it nor did he make it alone. In simple terms it was a "team effort".

I think the "Internet" allows a broader aspect of the team concept which in turn will promote productivity and development.

As I stated I still do not see where you used the term reasonable use or abuse.

 

[monkeyhead]

The very few vendors I've taken the time to call for hard copies of the technical documentation have generally been good about sending them out without complaint. I think they still see it as saving money by only providing hard copies on request. I'm sure that will dry up when some bean counter looks at the cost of printing the 'on request' manuals and justifies his job by showing how much the company will save by only offering electronic versions of the manuals.

Now that adobe supports searching within pdf documents, I rarely find the need for a hard copy... unless there's no ethernet jack near the machine I'm working on. Then it's time to break out a new ream of Boise and a toner cartridge.

I actually wish they'd break away from the 'landscape' versions in the pdf's to pages that match the aspect ration of a computer screen. it would make reading them so much easier.

alright i'm sure i've wondered into this area:

 

[S7Guy]

I can honestly say that I have gone completely electronic, and have no manuals. It's kind of nice in a way. I used to have boxes and shelves just full of caltalogs and what not, but now I just have a few pictures of the kids and a couple of test plcs in my office. I don't even have any pamphlets.

I guess I'm the other guy who doesn't have internet access at work, but it's because I work on a closed network and there is no access to the outside world. If I had access, I would use it. I actually find that some of my tasks have to wait until the next day because of this.

Work ethic? Hmm. There were lazy losers long before the internet. And there was a lot of time wasted fumbling around with catalogs and fax machines and voice mail before the internet too. Yes, some people abuse it, but my productivity has gone up because of it, and I probably wouldn't even be able to work on my own without it.

 

[MarkTTU]

I would agree that many people have done many things "pre-Internet" but think about this, in the past many people are given credit for some "great" inventions. Thomas Edison developed the first light bulb to work on electricity but the facts show he did not actually "invent" it nor did he make it alone. In simple terms it was a "team effort".

I think the "Internet" allows a broader aspect of the team concept which in turn will promote productivity and development.

I'm going to add something to that thought...

The amount of time required for things to change (new products, product updates, critical business information, etc) is getting shorter and shorter... in short things move a lot faster now then they did 10 years ago and are moving blazingly fast compared to 25 years ago.

The real truth here is that the internet and sites like this are just tools and all tools can be mis-used or abused. Just because I can use a pipe wrench to destroy my computer by hitting it a few times does not mean that a pipe wrench doesn't belong in my toolbox. Same thing for the internet; just because it can be mis-used and abused doesn't mean that it shouldn't be in my toolbox.

Terry, just because you do not want to use this particular tool does not mean that this tool shouldn't be used while at work.

 

[Rick Densing]

I agreee with everything you said, Ron.

Mark is also correct. The internet is a tool, and to refuse to use all the tools available is not my definition of a good work ethic.

You could turn the argument around. What did the goof-offs do before the internet? I am sure they found something.

 

[just_lionel]

At my place of employment we do not have internet access. Only the front office people and the supervisors. All of it monitored for abuse.

I think it would be helpful at times to look up error codes, faults, etc, when you don't have a manual, or the manual is outdated.

I have called up my wife before and told her to go online and look up XXXXX. It can be handy but it can be abused.

 

[MarkTTU]

I have called up my wife before and told her to go online and look up XXXXX. It can be handy but it can be abused.

That proves my point... If its easier/faster/better for you to call your wife to have her look something up on the net then someone at your company needs to seriously re-evaluate why you don't have net access. Can it be abused? Yes. But would you abuse it?